sub panel to garage.
#1
11-05-10, 03:41 PM
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sub panel to garage.
I have 4, #6 wires in conduit ran to my garage, getting ready to wire it. I have a Siemens 125 amp main lug breaker box in the garage. I put a 60 amp double pole breaker in the house to serve as the main for the box out in the garage. In a drawing that one of the guys posted for me, the 2 hot wires go to a breaker in the sub panel, what size breaker should this be? A 60 amp double pole as well? Will this serve as another main for the sub panel?
#2
11-05-10, 03:44 PM
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Yes, it will serve as the panels disconnect. Don't forget your ground rod if the garage is detached.
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11-05-10, 03:48 PM
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#4
11-05-10, 04:12 PM
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#5
11-05-10, 05:12 PM
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You can use any circuit breaker approved for the panel and rated at 60 amperes or more that can attach to the bus bars AND for which you can install an approved hold-down device.
OR, you can install a 60 ampere or higher rated fused or unfused safety switch prior to the circuit breaker panel. In this case the supply wires go to the safety switch and then from the safety switch to the main lugs in the circuit breaker panel. generally it is less expensive to simply use a main breaker panel in an unattached building.
OR, you can install a 60 ampere or higher rated fused or unfused safety switch prior to the circuit breaker panel. In this case the supply wires go to the safety switch and then from the safety switch to the main lugs in the circuit breaker panel. generally it is less expensive to simply use a main breaker panel in an unattached building.
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11-06-10, 02:57 AM
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What about the Equipment gronding bar in the sub-panel in the garage, should the bonding strap be connected to it? Also, does the circuit breaker in the sub panel in the garage need to be a double pole 60 amp, or just a single pole?
#7
11-06-10, 03:00 AM
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hold down device?
Oh, and what are you talking about when you said an approved hold down device!?
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11-06-10, 05:15 AM
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Hello, is anybody out there? Or am I up too early for ya'll? 2 questions posted previously are still unanswered. Thanks!
#9
11-06-10, 05:53 AM
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I'm not getting any answers to my posts previously submitted, so I'll post another. What is an approved hold down device? Also, when running power to a sub panel, do I need a double pole breaker in the sub panel to hook the wires from the main panel to? Also, does the bonding strap need to be hooked up to the equipment grounding bar in the sub panel?
#10
11-06-10, 06:07 AM
Gee, gotta eat breakfast sometime! Most of us either work or take breathers. It's a forum, not a chat room.
An approved hold down device on the breaker is either a mechanical means of screwing into the panel. But generally the cover will hold the breaker in place once it is installed.
Grounding should be attached to the grounding rod and not to the neutral buss as previously stated. The strap should not be attached to the neutral bar. If you are running a 240 volt circuit to the garage, then it will need to be a double breaker.
Larry
"Half of communications is listening, and you can't listen with your mouth"
An approved hold down device on the breaker is either a mechanical means of screwing into the panel. But generally the cover will hold the breaker in place once it is installed.
Grounding should be attached to the grounding rod and not to the neutral buss as previously stated. The strap should not be attached to the neutral bar. If you are running a 240 volt circuit to the garage, then it will need to be a double breaker.
Larry
"Half of communications is listening, and you can't listen with your mouth"
#11
11-06-10, 09:26 AM
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Easy there, I wasn't in any way trying to be a jerk! I just thought that maybe since my answers had kinda been previously answered, that I might have to make a whole new thread, which I failed to do, just replied. Anyway, I got it that the grounding rod is attached to the equipment grounding bar on the sub panel. I have no idea how many volts I'm running out there. I have 100 amp service to the house, then I'm using a 60 amp, double pole breaker in the house to feed the garage, then I guess, but don't know for sure, if I need a single pole or double pole 60 amp breaker out in the garage sub panel to hook my wires from the house, up to the garage sub panel?
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11-06-10, 10:16 AM
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I want to add also, that I purchased seperately an equipment grounding bar to put into the sub panel. From the looks of the print, the bonding strap is hooked to this!?
#13
11-06-10, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by gearhead59
I want to add also, that I purchased seperately an equipment grounding bar to put into the sub panel. From the looks of the print, the bonding strap is hooked to this!?
#14
11-06-10, 12:46 PM
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As Hot posted the equipment grounding bus is bolted to the steel enclosure of the circuit breaker panel with two self-tapping machine screws and this is sufficient to "bond" the equipment ground bus to the enclosure. You do NOT use the bonding strap nor do you use the bonding screw (if included) in the neutral bus.
Starting from the 2-pole circuit breaker in the service (main) panel you run two "hot" wires from the circuit breaker connections plus a white "neutral" wire from the neutral bus and a green or bare "equipment ground" from the equipment ground bus if such a bus is present in your service panel OR from the neutral bus. At the sub-panel the two hot wires connect to the main circuit breaker in what is called a "back fed" arrangement, the white neutral wire is connected to the insulated neutral bus and the green (or bare) equipment ground wire is connected to the equipment ground bus.
Yes, you need a 2-pole circuit breaker for this arrangement. You also need a circuit breaker hold-down kit from the manufacturer of the circuit breaker panel to ensure the main circuit breaker cannot be removed by just pulling it off the bus bars. Circuit breaker hold-downs are required whenever a "plug-in" circuit breaker is back fed. The panel holding the circuit breaker in place is NOT sufficient with a back fed arrangement.
Starting from the 2-pole circuit breaker in the service (main) panel you run two "hot" wires from the circuit breaker connections plus a white "neutral" wire from the neutral bus and a green or bare "equipment ground" from the equipment ground bus if such a bus is present in your service panel OR from the neutral bus. At the sub-panel the two hot wires connect to the main circuit breaker in what is called a "back fed" arrangement, the white neutral wire is connected to the insulated neutral bus and the green (or bare) equipment ground wire is connected to the equipment ground bus.
Yes, you need a 2-pole circuit breaker for this arrangement. You also need a circuit breaker hold-down kit from the manufacturer of the circuit breaker panel to ensure the main circuit breaker cannot be removed by just pulling it off the bus bars. Circuit breaker hold-downs are required whenever a "plug-in" circuit breaker is back fed. The panel holding the circuit breaker in place is NOT sufficient with a back fed arrangement.
#15
11-06-10, 03:39 PM
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Thanks Furd, for being patient with me! Your explanation of everything was very good! I thought I read on something in the papers that came with the sub panel box that the lid would suffice for holding the breakers in place, I'll look at the instructions closer, but I will go back to where I bought the panel and see if they can get me one also! I want this to be as safe as possible. Thanks again Furd, and all the other guys too!
#16
11-06-10, 04:32 PM
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The lid (cover) IS sufficient to hold the branch circuit breakers in place, it is ONLY back fed (where the power comes IN to the breaker through the screw terminals instead of going OUT) circuit breakers that requires the additional hold-down bracket.
#17
11-06-10, 05:24 PM
Thanks furd, I mean Furd. I was thinking the OP was confused about the 60 amp breaker in his main box rather than the one in the garage. Good catch.
#18
11-07-10, 02:56 AM
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So what yer sayin is, where the power comes into the sub panel in the garage, the 60 amp circuit breaker that it goes into needs to be held down so it don't just come floppin out of place with "Hot" wires attached to it, correct?
#19
11-07-10, 03:42 AM
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I was just looking at the instructions for the new sub panel that goes in the garage and it says, "The sum of QT breaker ratings should not exceed 110 amps per branch circuit stab". So, as I'm understanding, there are 2 sides of the "buss bar" in a circuit breaker box, each side should not add up to over 110 amps, right? So this would hold true for the box in the house too, right? If so, I'm going to have to do some rearranging in the main panel in the house to make this true there also, correct? I can do it, just have to move the 30 amp, double pole circuit breaker for the dryer, over to the other side, and put the 60 amp double pole breaker for the feed for the garage in it's place in order to keep both sides under 110 amps, correct?
#20
11-07-10, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gearhead59
I was just looking at the instructions for the new sub panel that goes in the garage and it says, "The sum of QT breaker ratings should not exceed 110 amps per branch circuit stab". So, as I'm understanding, there are 2 sides of the "buss bar" in a circuit breaker box, each side should not add up to over 110 amps, right? So this would hold true for the box in the house too, right? If so, I'm going to have to do some rearranging in the main panel in the house to make this true there also, correct? I can do it, just have to move the 30 amp, double pole circuit breaker for the dryer, over to the other side, and put the 60 amp double pole breaker for the feed for the garage in it's place in order to keep both sides under 110 amps, correct?
#21
11-07-10, 05:00 PM
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It does not say anything about anything aluminum on the package, breaker box, or instruction manual. It is a Siemens 125 amp, main lug, indoor, nema type 1, 8 space, 16 circuit, 1 phase, 3 wire, 120/240v~ surface mount, catalog # eo816ml1125s. It says in the instructions that when aluminum coductors are used, that a UL-listed conductor termination compound is recommended. That's it! So, do I need a different breaker box? I'm going to have a PA system for a band out there, plus other musicians guitar amps etc. Plus a welder and misc. stuff, grinder, etc. I want it to be able to handle all of this safely. Sorry about getting confused about the main panel on my previous post. Thanks Casual Joe!
Last edited by gearhead59; 11-07-10 at 06:30 PM.
#22
11-07-10, 08:57 PM
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Gnerally there is a "C" suffix to a Siemens catalog number if the panel has copper bus so I would assume this is an aluminum bus panel. As long as you are satisfied that 60 amps is all you need and you use the proper hold down kit on the backfed main, you should be fine.
#23
11-08-10, 04:13 AM
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Ok, I think I'm ready to start hookin stuff up, just one more idiotic question. I know that circuit breakers pick up their power from the bus bar and you hook in wire to run to outlets, what about the circuit breaker in the garage that recieves the power from the wires run from the house panel, this is working in reverse, power is hooked to the screws on the breaker, then goes into the bus. Does this breaker need to be different from the others that will send power out of the box? Is it, or should it be a "main" breaker, if there is such a thing? Or can it be done with a regular 60 amp, double pole breaker?
#24
11-08-10, 07:28 AM
Does this breaker need to be different from the others that will send power out of the box? Is it, or should it be a "main" breaker, if there is such a thing? Or can it be done with a regular 60 amp, double pole breaker?
#25
11-08-10, 09:11 AM
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Cool, thanks Ray! I went to a certain unmentionable place to get a "hold down bracket", which was mentioned on an earlier post, and they didn't know what I was talkin bout, when I explained what it was, and what it did, they agreed that something like that would make it safer, but they didn't have any and never carried them. So, I went to a local electrical supply place, and they basically said the same thing, they broke out a different brand name breaker and showed me where there was a hole all the way thru the breaker where I might be able to bolt it down to the panel, but they said they never did this because the lid held it in place, and if you had to take the lid off, you could kill the power at the breaker in the house. That's just what they told me, thought I'd relay that back to you.
#26
11-08-10, 09:52 AM
You're looking for a "Main Breaker Retainer". The Siemens part no. is ECMBR1 or ECMBR2 depending on the model of load center you have. An electrical supply house that is a Siemens dealer should have these in stock.
Here's the accessories page of the catalog (ignore the prices, they're suggested retail BS):
http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/contr...1/01_35-36.pdf
Here's the accessories page of the catalog (ignore the prices, they're suggested retail BS):
http://cmsapps.sea.siemens.com/contr...1/01_35-36.pdf
#27
11-08-10, 01:21 PM
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Thank you to ibpooks! I will go back to the electrical supply place I was at earlier and order this part, they were a Siemens dealer, thanks!
I got to looking at my main panel in the house now, and it has a seperate equipment grounding bar and the neutral bar, unlike the print on the drawing you guys furnished me with. So, do I hook up the green wire (in the print, equipment ground wire), from the equipment ground in the main breaker and run it to the equipment ground in the sub panel? The neutral wire would remain the same, correct? Hooked from neutral bar, to neutral bar in both panels, right!?
I got to looking at my main panel in the house now, and it has a seperate equipment grounding bar and the neutral bar, unlike the print on the drawing you guys furnished me with. So, do I hook up the green wire (in the print, equipment ground wire), from the equipment ground in the main breaker and run it to the equipment ground in the sub panel? The neutral wire would remain the same, correct? Hooked from neutral bar, to neutral bar in both panels, right!?
Last edited by gearhead59; 11-08-10 at 02:29 PM.
#28
11-08-10, 06:10 PM
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Your ground bar and panel box are always bonded to the neutral bar at the first disconnect which is probably the main panel in your house (unless you have a disconnect at the meter outside). Subpanels never have the neutral and gound bar or panel box bonded together and must be kept separated.
#29
11-08-10, 09:46 PM
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I know this is pretty good topic and I know one of the poster in here metion about reverse feed breakers let me expand little more details here the standard breakers are useally not a issue with it at all.
But once you have GFCI or AFCI breakers you CAN NOT backfeed them they just simply don't work { they will stay in tripped mode or destroy electronic device inside the breaker and I have see it allready }
Merci.
Marc
But once you have GFCI or AFCI breakers you CAN NOT backfeed them they just simply don't work { they will stay in tripped mode or destroy electronic device inside the breaker and I have see it allready }
Merci.
Marc
#30
11-09-10, 03:54 AM
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Morning guys! You didn't answer my question. My main panel, in the house, has a neutral bar, and an equipment grounding bar,(that is not pictured in the print you gave me). There are three wires coming from my electric supplier co. (the pole outside). Two go to the breaker, one big plastic coated wire(looks the same as the two that go to the main breaker) goes to the neutral bar. Another bare wire goes from another bar inside the main breaker panel (that is not on your print), (I assume it would be the "equipment grounding bar"), to the ground rod outside. This is not how it is pictured on the print you guys supplied me with, the print you supplied me with has only a neutral bar in the main breaker panel that supplies the sub panel. So my question is, should the green wire, (as it's pictured in the print you gave me), be hooked to the equipment grounding bar in the main panel in the house, (which is not pictured in the print you gave me), then to the equipment grounding bar in the sub panel in the garage?
#31
11-09-10, 04:40 AM
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#32
11-09-10, 07:58 AM
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Cool, thanks a bunch HotinOKC! Now I have all the wires hooked up to both breaker panels, conduit ran, etc. I'm ready to wire some lights for my garage. Ok, now how do I go about this? What size wire do I use? How do you wire it? There are already a bunch of junction boxes, switches, wire, light fixtures, etc. out there. They just didn't have it done right, it didn't work when I moved in. They had it rigged with the feed wire to the garage being a inside wire, type you would use to wire an outlet, ha! Just a quick rundown of one circuit for lights will do for now. Thanks to everybody again!
#33
11-09-10, 08:26 AM
Lights can be on a 15 or 20 amp breaker. Use #14 NM-b or conduit for 15a. Use #12 for 20a. Run power from breaker box to switch by the entrance then power to the lights. Each light feeds the next. You would have to have a lot of lights before you needed more then one branch circuit.
Best practice use 20a breakers for the receptacles. #12 NM-b if protected or if exposed conduit with THWN wires. If the breaker isn't GFCI the first receptacle should be.
Best practice use 20a breakers for the receptacles. #12 NM-b if protected or if exposed conduit with THWN wires. If the breaker isn't GFCI the first receptacle should be.
#34
11-09-10, 09:47 AM
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