Pool timer wiring help please

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  #1  
Old 01-25-11, 06:03 PM
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Pool timer wiring help please

I made a video to help you all help me. I hope you can understand what I'm asking there.

YouTube - Intermatic pool timer wiring

Main questions are.

1. Why were the old wires connected black to red and then placed on the timer that way? I thought red should always go to red and black should always go to black. Is it because there are two breakers involved. So red and black from each breaker would need to go together in order to "close the loop" on the circuit?

2. The ground wires involved are green, and there are only two of them. One from the breaker box, and the other one is from the pump itself. They are then wired together and then are screwed into the wooden fence post. Is that correct? AFAIK they do not wire anywhere to the timer itself. Is this proper grounding?


Thanks for any help offered!
 
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  #2  
Old 01-25-11, 07:09 PM
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Nice video BTW

First off you are going to have the same issue with rain frying the timer because this timer is not a weather proof enclosure (or at least it doesn't seam to be) Please confirm.

I'll answer the easy one first: #2 all grounds (green) should be tied together with a wirenut and also connect to the steel box of the enclosure with a pigtail. This effectively grounds the steel box.

To make this easier you should post the model number of the timer.

From what I can tell from the video the two blacks coming up in the pipe on the right is your feed from the 2 - 20 amp breakers. The left flex pipe is your feed to your pump.

The last two wires going to the smaller bell box in the middle goes to what? This will determine how they will be connected. If they are something that you want to come on the same time as the pump, then you will connect them with the pump wires and connect them to the load side of the timer. If you want them to be on all the time, then you will connect them to the feed and then connect those wires to the line side of the timer.

It does matter what wires go where otherwise the timer will not run. Your feed will need to be on the line and the load on the load. ALSO - check the voltage of the timer. Since you have 5 poles I am concerned that your timer is 120 volt in which case you will have to connect a neutral someplace.

Lastly - color does not matter when working with hot conductors. They can be any color (and interconnected) other then white, gray, green, or bare.
 
  #3  
Old 01-25-11, 08:58 PM
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O.K. I had kind of a cheat. Turns out that I have a shed/workout gym connected to the same circuit as the pool pump. I found that out the hard way when I went out there to lift tonight, because it had no power. Me and my brothers were not about to miss a workout so we put our heads together and connected the wires back to eachother in apparently the right configuration.

The pool timer is till not part of the equation yet though. We simply bypassed it for now, but at least I know which black goes with which red etc.

Now, I just don't know where those should be connected on the timer. I don't understand these "line/load" terms. What is the line and what is the load, and how do they relate. Anyway, here is the diagram included with it. Thanks so far:

 
  #4  
Old 01-25-11, 09:31 PM
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Line is power in and load is power out. In this case your pump.
 
  #5  
Old 01-25-11, 09:46 PM
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You line is the voltage from the breaker box. The load is the pump and the shed.

The problem is your pump is 110V, and the power to the shed is 110V thats why two 20 amp breakers.

If it was 220V you would have a double breaker.

That is the wrong timer if its the 104 you posted and that is not an outside box. It has no seal on the door. You need a 110V timer and an outside box.

Edit: I did see in your video its a 103. Its a 110 box but still not an outdoor. It should have a rubber seal on the door. You posted the wrong shematic.

Line from breaker to 1 and 3. Load from pump to 2 and 4. Load from shed to 2 and 4, Check outlet at shed with polarity tester and switch the shed wires if it fails.

http://www.intermatic.com/~/media/fi...20english.ashx

Stop take a break and re think this as far as getting a timer with a weather seal.


Mike NJ
 

Last edited by lawrosa; 01-25-11 at 10:10 PM.
  #6  
Old 01-25-11, 09:52 PM
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Nice veido there however you have wrong timer box for that useage that is a indoor box the model number is T103 which I spotted on the youtube veido. { the outdoor will be T103R R mean raintight or weatherproof }

Now for the diagram you need a netural to one termail here let me post the diagram for T103 timer unit.




Just note this show for water heater useage and it will be the same for your pool pump setup so the white conductor which goes to the water heater is actually a hot conductor { they should remark that one }

The other issue It may arise is you have the pool pump circuit tied to the shed circuit that is kinda iffy so when you get more free time just add a circuit for shed only and keep the pump on seperated circuit.

Merci.
Marc

Note:
Let me know if the pump is wired for 120 or 240 volts then we will go from there
 
  #7  
Old 01-25-11, 11:35 PM
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Sorry guys, stipid mistake posting the wrong diagram. It is indeed the T103, and like you all say it is NOT an outdoor box. I knew I was probably getting in over my head on this one. I can do so many things around the house myself I figured that tackling this would be no problem. Hell, I fix computers, xbox's, ps3's, both my cars..........electricity just boggles me from time to time. I always need help with it.

Anyway, I didn't know the shed was wired that way until tonight. It does certainly seem stupid to me, I'm guessing that the guy who wired it was just looking for the quick way out. I knew him, grew up in this neighborhood.........

So I'll take another crack at it tomorrow with some of the information you guys posted. I'm sure I can get this working with all your help. Stay tuned!!!!!!
 
  #8  
Old 01-26-11, 11:13 AM
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You keep saying "I know, I know this is over my head, its not a weatherproof enclosure etc".. but you continue moving forward on your mission. It seems you cafeteria style "pick N chose" only the advice that will give you the band-aid end result of getting the pump and shed back on line.
I too viewed your video on youtube and I agree totally with the gentleman that posted his comments on youtube about lack of GFCI protection, ignored use of locknuts, no serv. disco for the pump. I'd like to add, doesnt look like you have a equipotential bonding conductor connected to the motor frame, the use of two separate SP breakers for a 220V apparatus or the using the timer terminals as a splicing point to continue the circuity to the shed.... just to mention a few concerns.

I suggest you contact an electrician familiar in pool installations for recommendations.


I have lurked this website off N' on for awhile and because of my personal perception of what I feel DIY'ers are capable of handling or willingness to heed to the letter "T" that I elected not to join or post until now. It is proximity of electricity to water safety issues that has brought me out of the wood work to this thread.

To this website and its members, I apologize for these comments refecting as being my "first posting"
 
  #9  
Old 01-26-11, 04:36 PM
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Welcome, EpicMan. Good first posting. Stick around and post again when you feel the need.
 
  #10  
Old 01-26-11, 04:37 PM
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[Content removed]

If you had paid attention to the video you would have heard that the guy who wired all this up WAS and IS currently an electrician by trade. Now, if you say he's a crappy electrician, I only have your word to go on. Other than that, HE has a track record of helping people.......albiet for money. This was HIS house. It has been standing, with the pool/shed setup for about 10 years. No one has been shocked, no explosions, no fires, no injuries, no drownings have happened due to his wiring of the box. The old timer is ANCIENT and was looking badly worn BEFORE it's malfunction so it was bound to be replaced anyway.

[content removed]

I also have admitted that it is indeed NOT the outdoor model. But there must be NO way that I could modify it to be weatherproof right? Impossible for me to fashion some sort of enclosure or weathersripping to ward off water right?

[content removed]
 

Last edited by ray2047; 01-26-11 at 09:32 PM. Reason: Removed content non-bennificial or argumentative
  #11  
Old 01-26-11, 04:42 PM
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I also have admitted that it is indeed NOT the outdoor model. But there must be NO way that I could modify it to be weatherproof right? Impossible for me to fashion some sort of enclosure or weathersripping to ward off water right?
Correct. You need to use the correct enclosure or move it inside not use it in violation of the UL listing..
 
  #12  
Old 01-26-11, 04:53 PM
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We here are only giving advice. And we must assure the advice we give is good advice. If we tell you to go ahead and wire it and your house burns down whos fault is it. Epic man is just looking out for you, and even though no shocks in 10 years now that you are doing a repair something might change and we are not there. Plus codes were different 10 yrs ago. You may need to upgrade some things. Its ok to do it yourself but for your own saftey and others(swimmers) do it correctly.

What if you wire something wrong and the pump goes out and you did not bond correctly? Then everyone in the pool gets electrocuted. Your fault? Lawsuit? You touched it your liable.. and we have you on video..LOL

Anyway I dont know how you made out, but you never did answer some key questions for use to help you.

1) It dictates that the line from the breakers is 110V. If it was 220V then that breaker should have a bar across it like other 220V breakers in your box. (You electrician friend may have done 220V with these two breakers which is not correct at the moment.
2) The box you have is 110V. You cant use that if its 220V
3) Not sure how he got 110V to the shed. Hot and Ground????

So you see we are not sure. And if your not sure it does not make a good combination. We dont want to kill anyone.
I would advise doing it correct or dont do it at all.

Mike NJ
 
  #13  
Old 01-26-11, 05:06 PM
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Thanks law. Your wording has made things a bit easier to understand. Indeed the breakers are TWO seperate breakers in the box. They are NOT joined by a bar like you suggest. So that does indeed mean that the previous electrician must have taken shortcuts correct? See, if all this is risky because of my false faith placed in the gentleman before me, then I will gladly bow out. It isn't wrong of me to have assumed that he would have done things right is it? He's the eletrician, I figured if I just mirrored what he did I'd be done and it would be Miller time. Since these comments have been made I must clarify the following:

1. My new timer is indeed 110V. If I wire it up the way it was before, with TWO "lines" coming in, I'll ruin it correct? So this means that I musn't do what he was doing on the previous timer.

2. The 110 does indeed go out to the shed. I'm not sure how he did what you are wondering about, but I can confirm that the power in the shed does NOT work if either of those two breakers is turned off. So those two must be wired together. They are both 20 amp breakers.

Here's a thought. If I were to call and pay for a "real life" electrician, what would he do? Would he run completely new lines? Would he put the shed on it's own new circuit? Would he be running conduit all over the yard? Would he charge an arm and a leg for this work to be done? At some point I have to cut myself out of it if I can't handle it. But............can I handle it with all your help? Tell me where to wire the thing and I'll do it. Tell me I need a GFCI and I'll get it. Tell me it's impossible though and I'm just not sure I'll believe you. Electricians are not magicians, if they can learn it so can I. I don't lack brains, I lack experience. Help me learn by doing? I think I'll make another video showing you exactly what exists.
 
  #14  
Old 01-26-11, 05:55 PM
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Here's the new video:

YouTube - Intermatic pool timer part 2
 
  #15  
Old 01-26-11, 06:49 PM
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I think I know what he did. It was originally a 220 line and 220 pool pump. The wireing was already in place and he converted it to 110. And he probably did this because he built the shed and wanted 110 out there and or the pool pump went and he had a 110 pool pump. There are two ways he could have done this but I think it is a multiwired branch circuit per Article 210.4 of the NEC. But by could even though 110 the two breakers still need that bar.

Also from what I see those two breakers should be wired as one for the pool pump and timer, and one for the shed. He is probably using a common nuetral.

With all this said my main concerns are there are two many variables here. Grounding, GFI, and bonding, polarity and stuff not to code. You could probably wire it to get it to work but I would want it to be safe, espeacially aroung a pool.

What I would do. Call a local electrician and try to get him to come out for free. Even pay the service charge if you have to. Get him to evaluate whats going on and give you suggestions. Tell him all the concerns you have and things that were mentioned on this site. He will give you a course of action and tell you whats code. If all is good and its not alot of work he may even help you out for minimul charge. Most electricians I know are very resonable with homeowners.

Thats what I would do if it was my home. I have a seperate 20 amp for my pump and a 15 amp for the outlet and a 50 amp 220 out to the hot tub and seperate 110 to the shed. I had a licenced electrician install.

(Did I tell you I am a plumber!!)

Do what you think is right for your saftey. Everyone has their own fear factor. As for me its Miller time. Good luck.


Mike NJ
 
  #16  
Old 01-26-11, 06:56 PM
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Here is a start, if you are interested in putting in the time. Maybe give the previous electrician/homeowner a heads up on the link, the illustrations are excellent. Click on the hot link that pertains to the "complete pdf", 4th hot link down

All of your present violations would of failed over 10 years ago from an electrical inspection

Article 680 Pools and Similar Installations - Part 2 of 2

Remember....in order to exchange information, we must first develope a common vocabulary
 
  #17  
Old 01-26-11, 07:03 PM
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My best suggestions I can give you is:

Build an enclosure to house the timer. Make it look like a bird house without a hole. That or go get a weatherproof timer.

Replace the two single pole 20 amp breakers with a two pole GFCI breaker. This will protect the pool and the workout room.

French277's diagram is correct. With this timer you need a neutral to run the clock. The neutral goes to "A"
Your load wires, as you know, go to 1 and 3 (one each). Before connecting the load wires, you will need to leave them wire nutted as you have them and just run a pig tail (a short piece of wire) to the clock terminals.
The pump wires will go to terminals 2 and 4 (one each)

Other notes:
The clock could likely be considered a disconnect (or the breakers them self. Not sure how far they are from the pool)
The pump appears to be grounded with the wire in the conduit whip.
Since you just bought the place and did not do in original installation I don't expect you to scrap it all and start jack hammering concrete. Just be aware that there are risks (especially with pools) and we all are only looking out for your, your family and friends safety. Good luck!
 
  #18  
Old 01-26-11, 07:44 PM
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I just want to know if its 110 or 220. No one has answered that? I want to investigate further for my own knowledge.

Mike NJ
 
  #19  
Old 01-26-11, 08:07 PM
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Ill add my 2 cents to this before he has any other problems. I agree that a GFI breaker is needed for the pool pump and all proper pool grounding should be brought up to code. Now, about the timer and GFI breaker. its been my experience that GFI breakers and timers dont get along. You wont be able to use the power from the GFI to power the timers clock. You will have to run a seperate 15 amp circuit(or use power from another circuit) to power the timers internal clock. The GFI power will go through the timer on the switching side. IF you try and use the GFI to power both, when the timer clicks on the GFI breaker will trip. Just an FYI
 
  #20  
Old 01-26-11, 08:55 PM
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Joe.,

A common two pole GFCI breaker will work with netural loads but I just want to give the OP a head up the two pole GFCI breakers are not cheap the last price I heard in states is 60 Euros { Dollars } and up depending on what brand and conferation.

Now to OP if you have a neon test light or voltmeter and turn off one breaker and leave other breaker on and you can tell which one is A or B {hot side } and white is netural now the other question is you mention that you need two circuits to be on for shed and while at the timer box location I know I did spotted two conductors but I think both were black not sure { can you confirm this one for moi ? Merci }

and find the stubbed up conduit to the shed and at the first junction box point see how many conductors are in there and how it ran.

Please do post the photo it will help alot for us.

Ahh Oui., the last thing look at motour nameplate if that is straight 120 volts or 240 volts { you may have to open up the peckerhead ( motor junction box ) to verify it }

Merci.
Marc
 
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