220 pool pump rewire.

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  #1  
Old 02-14-11, 08:04 PM
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220 pool pump rewire.

Am replacing the 50 year old pool pump wiring, its about a 100 feet back to the panel so I figured 10 wire probally.

The old setup (rusted through) had a on/off switch below and a timer right above.

I noticed the rusted emc leading into the on/off switch had 4 wires coming into the switch, red black, green and white.

However when it entered into the timer box right above it only had 3 wires, 2 blacks and a ground.

Ok question is it code to have a on/off switch on the pump in addition to the timer? Do I need a neutral white wire to connect up the 220v switch?

Bottom line I Guess what I am asking is can I redo the entire run with fresh new wire with 3 wires Black/red green, that is including the switch, or do I need 4 wires the above and the white neutral.

Never dealt with 220 before hehe trying to figure this out.

Thanks in advance for help!
 
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  #2  
Old 02-15-11, 05:33 AM
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You need to determine if the pump needs a neutral. A straight 240 motor does not need a neutral. Your setup may need a neutral if there is a small 120v control circuit.

Neutrals should not be switched.

Given that your setup has rusted thru it may not meet the current code requirements. Can you post back with more information about your setup? In-ground or above-ground; hardwired pump or cord and plug etc.
 
  #3  
Old 02-15-11, 05:11 PM
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thanks reply...

thanks for help, I determined it will run on 3 wires, just mimicking basically what is already setup. I spent a few hours on the boards and understand 220 a little better. I was stumped why there wasn't a neutral but now I understand the 2 hots are also the returns with phasing on/off etc.

we have rusted pipe from water leaks over the years/rain etc that is visible, infact a little shaking of rust and the wires were showing.

I was hoping to be able to go back maybe 8 or 10 feet of the run and cut out the 50 year old emc and replace it with pvc back to the timer and pump.

At a hardware store someone informed me you had to replace entire run that emc disenegrates over the years.

Question how many years does emc usually last inground before needing replacing?

How many years does copper wire last before needing replacing?



If we have to replace entire run we are thinking of using 120v instead of 220 because we took the advice here on the boards and just laid an extra line of empty pvc while we had the hole dug a couple years ago on another project out to the pool shed.

Unfortonately we only buried it 12 inches which is legal depth for 120 volt in pvc conduit.

[B]so Questions.[/B]

Can I use a regular receptacle gfci instead of a panel breaker gfci? in Other words somewhere along the run before I hit the timer/pump install a Gfci?

The motor says 14 1/2 amps, currently its on a 220 30 amp breaker, if we go to 110 could I use a 20 amp breaker? (don't think they make gfci breakers for pushmatic breakers)
Last Questions (sorry so many)

I put 2 8 ft grounding rods on my main panel. This will connect up to that through the green wire #8 I will run to the pump/timer.

Ok code, argh. bonding strap is required or something like that in pool areas, but I have read you want only one main ground for the whole house, wouldn't that be the rods installed in the main panel 100 feet away.

[U]Question

I guess question is if I already have grounding rods at main panel, do I need also a bonding strap or something at the timer.
[/U]
Thanks in advance for help on any of the questions!
 
  #4  
Old 02-15-11, 05:44 PM
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In order to be able to use the reduced burial depth of 12" the circuit needs to be GFI protected near the source, not at the point of use.

Check out this thread re bonding
http://forum.doityourself.com/electr...l-bonding.html

The circuit grounding wires for the pool wil come from the buss in the panel where the circuit originates. If this is the service panel, and not a subpanel, it will be where the other whites and grounds originate. The rods serve an entirely different purpose.
 
  #5  
Old 02-15-11, 07:29 PM
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thanks reply, dedicated line.

the reduced burial depth of 12" the circuit needs to be GFI protected near the source, not at the point of use.

hmm so you are saying I need the gfci near the pump. Thats no problem to do I could put a waterproof gfci in the pool shed before it connects to the timer/pump. However I thought I read somewhere the pool pump needed to be a dedicated line (I am not %100 sure on this). Would the fact I had a receptacle gfI on the line to a hardwired pump make it not dedicated only to the pump?

Hmm I read through the bonding, still a little confused, in the morning I will look at current setup, there is some wires going to metal in the pool shed but they were about 10 or 12 size I think , hmm it looks like they bonded to the rebar in the example. Lol I hope I don't have to put another of those ground rods in the ground near the pool shed that was sort of a pain.


Thanks for the answers and help
 
  #6  
Old 02-15-11, 08:27 PM
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As far as I know EMT is not approved for underground usage at all. It is very thin wall with light zinc coating so I assume it would rust through in just a couple seasons at most. In good conditions copper wires can last well over 50 years, but life will be shortened if they have been exposed to the elements.

I don't have my code book handy right now, but I believe pool pump circuits must always be 24" deep. The 12" depth GFCI exception does not apply to pools. The pool pump circuit must be dedicated to only the pump.

It sounds to me like to do this to code you'll need to dig a 24" trench and put in PVC conduit. It would be best to keep the motor on 240V if at all possible. You will also need a GFCI breaker for the pump motor. It used to be legal to have no GFCI for inground pool pump motors, but now all pool pumps must be GFCI protected.

It might be a hassle, but I think you're doing the right thing bringing this very old installation up to code. Last fall I updated a pool that was maybe 20-25 years old and it was in pretty rough shape with rust and cracked wires; I can only imagine one twice that age with original equipment.
 
  #7  
Old 02-16-11, 02:08 AM
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thanks info....

I saw metal conduit rusting and I knew the term emc, so I thought that was it, I am thinking I was wrong about it being emt, I think it was Rigid based on description I found below and your saying it corodes in a year or so.

The cheaper version of protection is the Rigid Metallic Conduit. This type will corrode in many types of soils but has many advantages over the PVC style. It is easier to install since it only requires a six to eight inch bury depth. Also, it does not require a separate grounding wire unless it is used for a spa, fountain, swimming pool or other water borne item.

The third type of wire protection is Electrical Metallic Tubing, also known as Thinwall Conduit. This type of wire protection is not intended for below ground burial

I Found this on another site:
Also, in many areas, rigid conduit buried underground will rust away in 15 to 20


The 12 inch rule for gfci protected circuits only applies to 120 volt circuits 20 amps or less.

If the pump is rated for 14.5 amps, I wonder if I could get away with a 120 20 amp rule on the pump with a gfi using above rule. That is what inspector quoted us for the earlier project. I don't know if it would surge to 30 amps or more however because currently with its 220 setup its now on a 30 amp breaker. I am hoping its not 24in digging for pool pumps in my area but you are probaly right. (I don't want to dig that thing again lol)

Actually 1/3 of the 100 ft run is now under brick pavers, I beleive its 4 in depth under sidewalk or pavers? and I guess I still have the option of using rigid metal at a depth of 6-8 in which would last another 15 years or so (I hope its not different depth for pool motors)

Thanks so much for you help, you are guiding me to the important considerations on this project.
 
  #8  
Old 02-16-11, 08:09 AM
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If the pump is rated for 14.5 amps, I wonder if I could get away with a 120 20 amp rule on the pump with a gfi using above rule.
If that is the rating at 240 volts then at 120 volts it would draw 29 amps.

Just a tech note it is unlikely you have 220 v. It is almost certainly 240v.
 
  #9  
Old 02-16-11, 09:18 AM
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Okay I checked the code book for you, and the burial depth for a pool circuit is 6" if you use rigid metal conduit (thickwall threaded steel) or 18" if you use PVC. [Article 680.10] The 12" depth exception for GFCI-protected circuits does not apply to pools.

I hardly ever use steel pipe underground just because it will not last as long as PVC, it is far more expensive, and a ton more labor to install. If the digging is really tough you can rent a trenching machine or sub it out to a landscape contractor. The difference in price between PVC (~$0.30 ft) and RMC (~$1.50 ft) would probably cover the cost of the trench machine rental.

If you do end up going with the steel pipe, once it is fully assembled you can coat the outside of the pipe with tar and wrap it to protect it from corrosion. The process is a pain but will extend the life of the pipe.

BTW, you can easily tell the difference between rigid and EMT by looking at the fittings. Rigid has threads cut into the pipe and is screwed right into the fittings exactly like a natural gas line would be. EMT is just pushed into the fittings using a set-screw or a compression/jamb nut.
 
  #10  
Old 02-16-11, 06:29 PM
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Thanks help again!

Okay I checked the code book for you, and the burial depth for a pool circuit is 6" if you use rigid metal conduit (thickwall threaded steel) or 18" if you use PVC

thank you for checking the code book on the 18 inch depth that goes beyond the call of duty appreciated

You have convinced me to get out the shovel again. well you have eliminated the rigid, the 6in of digging sounds good but everything else sounds bad! plus I have done a bit and familar with pvc so am thinking thats the way to go. I don't think a ditch witch would work in our case were a little sketchy on where the gas line runs and don't want to hit the electric lines I put in last year.

We have been hoping of switching it to 115v to avoid the dig but sounds like according to code if a pool pump is involved its a 18 dig no matter what, so might as well go 230v.

I found the online pump manual online. info from it says:

I have a 1 hp pump. It draws 14.6/7.3., Says to use 14/12 wire, and 10/20 amp breaker.

I have a 100 foot run would #12 wire still be ok to use?
[

What size Gfi 15 or 20 or amp?

Do I need to lower the size of the double pole breaker size from 30 amps down? (I am thinking possible safety issue) They suggest 10 amps. Not sure if that would trip it though fairly often. I am not sure what is a good size breaker? (its very expensive breakers the old pushmatic kind so if safety not issue I would just leave same)


Again Thanks for all the help, Very good information!


p.s. I tired to say 115v and 230v this time lol




pump website for manual....

http://cleveland2.ce.ttu.edu/softwar...es/04_Pump.pdf
 
  #11  
Old 02-16-11, 11:14 PM
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For the distance of 100 feet if you have the pump wired for 240 volts I will suggest leave it alone it work better this way due it far less senstive with voltage drop on that distance @240 volts.

What size your pool pump motor is ?? this may change the figures a bit so if you can read the nameplate let us know I know you say it but I am getting two diffrent conflects info in this fourm but if that is the case you have 1 HP motor in there then I will follow the NEC chart to determated the correct conductor size.

1 HP @ 240 volts will be about 8 amps while on 120 volts it will be about 16 amps { give or take couple amps depending on design }

For me you can able see why I rather leave it on 240 volt @ 100 feet distance you can use #12 AWG size without issue at all with 20 amp two pole GFCI breaker

If you really want this on 120 volts you have to bump up the conductor size to #10 and you will have to use 30 amp single pole GFCI breaker.

To run the new conduit you can run 3/4 inch conduit and you can set up a subpanel at the pump area location due you can have one GFCI breaker for pool pump and one breaker for other purpose like genral recepatle { please read the NEC code related to the receptale and luminaires for pool area they are very picky on it }

Merci.
Marc
 
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Old 02-17-11, 10:41 AM
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thanks info..

Yah it is a 1 hp pump and at 240v it would use 7.3 so you 8 is pretty much right there ballpark. at 120v it would be 14.6.


If you really want this on 120 volts you have to bump up the conductor size to #10 and you will have to use 30 amp single pole GFCI breaker.

I am thinking its better 240v, for one thing Either i will have to find a pushmatic 30 amp gfi, or have to buy a receptacle 30 amp gfi. $150 I hear for one of those. Also ,I will have to run more expensive wire, and have read (debatable) itsHarder on the pump, . I better go 240v

For me you can able see why I rather leave it on 240 volt @ 100 feet distance you can use #12 AWG size without issue at all with 20 amp two pole GFCI breaker

Thats what I wanted to know, so #12 is ok,

If I don't do a subpanel, what size gfi receptace in front of pump 15a or 20a?

[B]Thank you for the help, I am pretty much getting dimesions set of what I need and understand the whole project better now.Thanks!
 
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Old 02-17-11, 10:50 AM
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If I don't do a subpanel, what size gfi receptace in front of pump 15a or 20a
The pump would be hard wired normally. The GFCI protection would be at the panel, a GFCI breaker. They do not make 240v GFCI receptacles. If you do use a 240v receptacle it would be 20a and if outside need an in-use cover.

If you do not use a subpanel and need a 120v receptacle you will need to run an additional black and white for it. IIRC code now requires a 120v convenience receptacle.
 
  #14  
Old 02-17-11, 11:41 AM
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I think your best option here is to install a subpanel. The reason is that 240V GFCI breakers do not exist for Pushmatic to my knowledge. The panel could go inside next to the main panel, mounted on the outside wall of the house or on a post near the pump, but at least 10' from the rim of the pool or separated from the water by a "permanent barrier". If you mount the panel in line-of-sight from the pump, the breaker will also count as the pump disconnect switch so that will save a little bit in parts.

I would consider a something like this:

Put a 30A double-pole breaker in the main panel, from that run 10/3g cable into a small 4 space Siemens subpanel mounted on the outside wall of the house. In that panel you could install a 15A double-pole GFCI breaker for the pump and out of the bottom of that panel, run a 3/4" PVC conduit underground to the pump. Through the conduit pull two black #12 THWN wires and one #12 green wire. These are the hots and ground for the pump. You could also install a 20A single breaker in this panel and put a weatherproof box and cover on the wall near this panel to have a general-purpose 120V receptacle in the area for servicing the pool area with a shop vac, etc. The reason I picked Siemens is that they have fairly cheap double-pole GFCI breakers compared to the other brands. There are lots of possibilities, but this is one example to help you think about what would work best in your case.
 
  #15  
Old 02-17-11, 07:52 PM
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thanks for more help!

. They do not make 240v GFCI receptacles

When I read rays comment above I said in my head I will have to install a subpanel.

Then ibpooks lays out exactly some of the questions I was going to ask. Hehe you are answering them before I even ask them.


[I]code now requires a 120v convenience receptacle. [/I]

I am ok on this one already, I have a inspected approved gfi receptacle in the pool shed.

Hmm I Just thought of this now I basically have 2 options now, using the v240 line.


The first is what Ippooks laid out. (thanks I will try to get Seimens brand if I use this plan). I have the 1/2 pipe in the ground now so if I used your plan I would mount the sub panel right near the house, then off of it send the 2 black one green #12 100 feet to the Timer/pump. This is because I can fit 3 #12 through 1/2 pipe. I dont think I could send the 2 blacks, white and ground #10 through 1/2 pipe to put subpanel on the pool shed, would need 3/4 pipe.

Question the pool timer we will install has a led light with a on/off switch would that be considered a disconnect?

Something I didn't think of before was 2 years ago we added a 60 amp subpanel to 3 sheds on the oppisite side of the pool probally 60 feet away. Anyways point is its a 6 pole breaker and I have poles 2 left empty on this. I could install the 15a 2 pole breaker for the pump on this which would save the cost of a new panel. I have to dig about 60 feet 18 inches on either plan. so I will have to kick these ideas around.

Its a square d panel, not sure if there gfi breakers are cheap or not?

Wow, thanks help you guys are giving me lots to think of!
 
  #16  
Old 02-18-11, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim T. View Post
I dont think I could send the 2 blacks, white and ground #10 through 1/2 pipe to put subpanel on the pool shed, would need 3/4 pipe.
You could use 1/2" pipe if you want. Code allows up to four #10s in a 1/2" pipe, it's a little easier to pull through 3/4" and the price is only a little more so I usually go to the larger size but you don't have to.

with a on/off switch would that be considered a disconnect?
If the timer on/off switch breaks both hot lines from the pump then it counts as a disconnect. Sometimes the timer only breaks one hot line and that does not count as a disconnect.

Anyways point is its a 6 pole breaker and I have poles 2 left empty on this. I could install the 15a 2 pole breaker for the pump on this which would save the cost of a new panel.
It sounds like that plan might work.

Its a square d panel, not sure if there gfi breakers are cheap or not
The square D Homeline brand aren't too bad, but if you have square D Q0 brand, then get out your gold card
 
  #17  
Old 02-18-11, 08:41 PM
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Its a square d panel, not sure if there gfi breakers are cheap or not?
They're not at all cheap if you get the QO series, the HOMELINE is cheaper, although it is a QO inside. Could not find any prices for 2p at l's or the hd website.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 02-22-11 at 05:07 AM. Reason: quote formatting
  #18  
Old 02-19-11, 01:40 AM
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Thumbs up somemore useful info

You could use 1/2" pipe if you want. Code allows up to four #10s in a 1/2" pipe, it's

ah good to know, I thought that might be over the limit not the case however.

If the timer on/off switch breaks both hot lines from the pump then it counts as a disconnect. Sometimes the timer only breaks one hot line and that does not count as a disconnect.

I will have to look at manual to see how it is setup, thanks info..


The square D Homeline brand aren't too bad, but if you have square D Q0 brand, then get out your gold card

hehe, hmm not sure, but homeline name seems familar, I will have to check it was about $5 buck for a regular breaker 20 amp.

I totaly forgot but a family member informed me I have a mounted empty subpanel about 5ft from the old puhsmatic one.

About 2 years ago a inspector told me I had to replace the old pushmatic panel (real pain he was head guy training a new inspector). So I mounted a 24 space Murray box ran pipe and labeled everything and called for a rough in inspection.

A different inspector showed up, said it was ridiculous you don't need to move the old subpanel, the Old pushmatic was fine and passed everything and apologized basically
for the other inspecor.

So I forgot near the house I have mounted Murray subpanel. I might just use it, its 24 space but its just sitting there empty


are Murray gfi breakers expensive lol j/k?

Question: About 40 feet of the 100 foot run we put a brick paver walking path over where we had buried the 1/2 pipe. For cement code states I believe that if the cement is 4inches thick I beleive you take 6 inches off of digging depth of non rigid conduit. Which would be 12 inches in this case. Would this rule hold true for brick pavers also?


thanks for the continued replies, I keep thinking I am just about done asking questions and I keep coming up with more, Thanks again for the help!
 
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Old 02-19-11, 08:57 AM
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Tim T could you please use the quote mark up "". I get confused easily at my age and trying to remember if bold is you are someone else makes my head spin. Thanks.

Just look for the symbol at the top of the reply box.
 
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Old 02-19-11, 09:40 AM
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I wondered how you did that.

Tim T could you please use the quote mark up "
Hehe let me try that. Thanks that should be easier.
 
  #21  
Old 02-21-11, 09:32 AM
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Best spot to place the Gfci's

I have been pricing breakers. I do have the square d qo panel

Murray 15a-60 amps double pole gfci about $95 -$160
Square D qo 15a double pole Gfci $280 -wow
but if you have square D Q0 brand, then get out your gold
card
Ibpooks you were right qo's are expensive.


ok questions on best spot to place the gfci.

option 1

add a double pole gfci 50-65 amp gfci to main panel and send the #6 wire about 10 feet over to my new Murray subpanel.

Is it correct to assume that all the regular non Gfci breakers I add to the entire Murray subpanel would then have GFCI protection?

Then I would just buy a non gfci regular 15a breaker and send it to the pool pump

Is this a better way to wire it than option #2 below?.[/B]


option 2

Get a regular non gfci 60 amp breaker from main and run it to the Murray Subpanel. At the Murray subpanel install a 15a GFCI breaker. Run those wires to the pool pump. Only the pool pump will be Gfci protected.


If I protect everything with GfCi is that perferable? or will it lead to alot of nuicsance trips or something? I guess which method is better I think cost will be about the same.
p.s.

for other people reading this thread who don't have a disconnect and receptacle already at your pool area. Some people suggested one way to get the double pole breaker gfci cheaper for a pool pump is to just buy one of those spa panel kits, which comes with a double pole breaker, and also includes the disconnect and sometimes a 20a breaker for a receptacle. They say the 50-60 amp gfci double poles are generally (ebay, HD,etc) $60-$80 cheaper because so many people use them on their pools etc.
Thanks for continued help!
 
  #22  
Old 02-21-11, 07:30 PM
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found a answer to above question on another post thought I would pass along.

Question asked:

I'm curious why you wouldn't advise putting a GFCI breaker on the feed to the subpanel as opposed to putting double pole gfci breakers in the subpanel itself to protect the circuits. Would it not provide the same sort of protection or is it mainly a cost concern?
Answer:

Nuisance tripping issues mostly. Our gfci tolerances for these class A gfci's is around 5 ma so instead of protecting a single branch circuit and dealing with only the leakage current of the branch circuit when you protect an entire piece of electrical equipment like a panelboard with numerous branch circuits to various equipment where motors are starting frequently and other loads operating your odds of a nuisance trip go way up in my experience. Panelboards are normally protected with GFPE devices that have higher trip tolerances. These are not commonly used in residential systems and are for protection of equipment not people. Anyway you will have agrument both ways for and against protecting panelboards with a double pole gfci.

My experience says it is not a good idea because you will have nuisance trip or any one branch circuit has a fault and the gfci will trip taking out the entire panelboard and its branch circuits. This is a problem both in troubleshooting the fault and you lose the vibrating feature of your recliner.... for no reason.. You do have a recliner in the shop don't you...??
Last edited by Roger Frazee; 01-27-2010 at 6:44 PM.


Hmm so sounds like Gfci on subpanel directly to the pump in my case and not protection for the whole panel.
 
  #23  
Old 02-22-11, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim T. View Post
add a double pole gfci 50-65 amp gfci to main panel and send the #6 wire about 10 feet over to my new Murray subpanel.
This option is okay. It will provide GFCI protection to all loads powered from that 60A panel, which is not a bad idea since anything outside or near the pool needs GFCI protection anyway. The downside is that it can be more likely to have a nuisance trip and everything on that panel will lose power if there is a trip, however that's not necessarily a bad thing as this panel doesn't have any "critical" loads on it.

Get a regular non gfci 60 amp breaker from main and run it to the Murray Subpanel. At the Murray subpanel install a 15a GFCI breaker. Run those wires to the pool pump. Only the pool pump will be Gfci protected.
This option is okay too. Neither one is really better than the other; you can pick which way works best for your situation.
 
  #24  
Old 04-02-11, 04:58 PM
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hi

I would make sure that you have a certified tech with you while doing this.
 
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