What new codes do I have to worry about??

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  #1  
Old 03-15-11, 12:08 PM
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What new codes do I have to worry about??

I currently finishing the room above the garage and I'm about to start the wiring...
The house was built to the 2005 NEC (I believe) I'm in MA and I don't know if we've adopted the 2011 yet (or the 2008 for that matter). Assuming it's 2011 NEC.. what new code should I be aware of? The room will be a bathroom and a bedroom and rec room and storage room. Here is what I know so far...
1. All the lighting and receptacles have to be on a AFCI breaker.
2. All the receptacles need to be TR (tamper resistant) (Just found that out today)
3. If I have any switch loops they need to carry the neutral along with it.

Here is my current branch plans:
1 - 12/2 for supplemental radiant heat
1 - 12/2 for dedicated receptacle (will use a GFCI receptacle )
1 - 12/2 to 2nd GFCI receptacle then to the fan/light on the load side in the shower
1 - 14/2 for the bedroom lights(2 cans and 1 light/fan) and bathroom lights (a 2 light fixture and 2 x 3 light wall lights) and Rec Room lights (6 cans?) (AFCI breaker)
1 - 12/2 for bedroom receptacles and hall receptacles then 14/2 for 2 x closet lights (AFCI breaker)
1 - 12/2 for rec room receptacles. (AFCI breaker)

Now I've tied into the existing smoke detector circuit to have one in the hall, one in the new bedroom and one in the rec room by the stairs.

Are two 20A receptacles on separate circuits overkill for the bathroom? I currently have 3 young girls with one on the way which might be another girl. So I'm guessing that they might be simultaneously be blowing drying hair. (The new bath will have double sinks)

Also.. All these branch circuits will come from the basement through a 2" PVC conduit which I had put in when the house was built. how many 12/2 (nm-b) lines can I put in that conduit? I saw somewhere that someone calculated the effective crossectional area of 12/2 was about .1320sq" which seems about right.. With 40% fill I get 9 12/2 wires. Is that right? Or do I have to derate when I get close to 40%? I'm only going to have 6 so I think I will be just fine.

Also.. Do I now need to use the green wire nut on all my grounds? Or can I still just twist them together? (I still twist even when using wire nuts)


Any comments/suggestions/criticisms welcome.

Thanks,

Jim
 
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  #2  
Old 03-15-11, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
I don't know if we've adopted the 2011 yet (or the 2008 for that matter).
I believe MA is on 2008 NEC; pcboss is from your area and can probably confirm is he posts here.

1. All the lighting and receptacles have to be on a AFCI breaker.
2. All the receptacles need to be TR (tamper resistant) (Just found that out today)
3. If I have any switch loops they need to carry the neutral along with it.
Yes for 1 & 2, No for 3.

Here is my current branch plans:
The bathroom only requires the one 20A receptacle circuit, a second is optional if you desire. GFCI is not required for the light/fan unit unless specifically mentioned in manufacturer's instructions. Don't mix #12 and #14 wire on the bedroom circuits. If your house is 2005 compliant the smoke detector circuit should already have AFCI, however you will need to add it if it does not.

I currently have 3 young girls with one on the way which might be another girl. So I'm guessing that they might be simultaneously be blowing drying hair. (The new bath will have double sinks)
A sensible precaution.

how many 12/2 (nm-b) lines can I put in that conduit?
No more than 4 based on derating. You may need to upsize to #10 or devise another plan to use that particular conduit.

Also.. Do I now need to use the green wire nut on all my grounds? Or can I still just twist them together? (I still twist even when using wire nuts)
It does not have to be green, but grounds do require a mechanical fastener (nut, crimp, etc).
 
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Old 03-15-11, 01:41 PM
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Sorry Ben, I am in one of the other states that starts with an M, I am in MD not MA.

I think you covered most of the bases.

If the fan/light is over the footprint of the shower it will require GFI protection in the installation instructions. Outside the footprint it will not.

Do you have room to add a subpanel instead of all the cable homeruns thru the 2" PVC?
 
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Old 03-15-11, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Don't mix #12 and #14 wire on the bedroom circuits.
Even if the breaker is 15A?

Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
If your house is 2005 compliant the smoke detector circuit should already have AFCI, however you will need to add it if it does not.
It already is.

Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
No more than 4 based on derating. You may need to upsize to #10 or devise another plan to use that particular conduit.
I need to use that conduit.
I'm not ripping up any walls.. How would I use #10 wire? I'm not running #10 through out the whole room! So I would have to switch to #12 somewhere outside the conduit? but I thought you couldn't mix wires? Where can I find the derating tables?
Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
It does not have to be green, but grounds do require a mechanical fastener (nut, crimp, etc).
That's fine. I just bought some greenies today.

Thanks!

Jim
 
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Old 03-15-11, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
If the fan/light is over the footprint of the shower it will require GFI protection in the installation instructions. Outside the footprint it will not.
That's what I thought. It is in the footprint of the shower.

Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
Do you have room to add a subpanel instead of all the cable homeruns thru the 2" PVC?
Not ideally... What are the accessibility requirements for the sub panel? the closest spot would be in a knee wall storage area accessed in the bathroom. I suppose I could run it over to what was supposed to be a linen closet.. Or maybe the storage room... That's going to be an expensive wire run. What would I need a 60A sub panel? 100A? To go to the storage closet would require about 30ish' or wire.

Crap! Or maybe I can go multiwire branch? Then I'd have to brush up on any special rules for that (what is there other than a double breaker?) The multi wire might work for 2 of the bathroom 20A. That gets me down to 5 wires in the conduit. (one is originally there (14/2) for the smokes) I'd prefer to go multiwire for non AFCI! I assume a double AFCI break will be $$$

Stupid derating!

Ok.. So now I really will need some help deciding what to do!
 
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Old 03-15-11, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by pcboss View Post
Sorry Ben, I am in one of the other states that starts with an M, I am in MD not MA.
Dang I should get that right seeing as how my M state always gets confused with Missouri or Minnesota.

Originally Posted by jbuszkie
Even if the breaker is 15A?
If the breaker is 15A to match the smallest wire, you can mix gauges but many regard it as a sketchy work practice unless there's a documented reason for it (see below).

How would I use #10 wire? I'm not running #10 through out the whole room! So I would have to switch to #12 somewhere outside the conduit?
Derating imposes limits on circuits to prevent heat buildup when multiple conductors are in the same pipe. Two ways to combat the limit are to use multiple pipes with fewer wires each, or to use larger AWG wires which produce less heat. Since you can't install a second pipe, upsizing the wire may be necessary.

Where can I find the derating tables?
It's a little complicated. Maximum conductor ampacity (table 310.16, 90C column) is reduced by a factor based on the total number of current-carrying conductors in the same pipe: 4-6 CCC = 80%, 7-9 CCC = 70%, 10-20 = 50%, ...

In your case, 6 romexes have 12 CCC (hots + neutrals). The highest ampacity of #12 is 30A, so 30A * 50% = 15A. The #12s in your pipe would be reduced to a maximum of 15A.

If you use #10: 40A * 50% = 20A which would be okay for what you need. So you could have a junction box on each side of the pipe, upsize each circuit to #10 through the pipe, then transition back to #12 on the other side.

So the options are: use the larger wire through the pipe, install fewer circuits, or install a subpanel instead of the individual circuits like pcboss suggested.
 
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Old 03-15-11, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
It's a little complicated. Maximum conductor ampacity (table 310.16, 90C column) is reduced by a factor based on the total number of current-carrying conductors in the same pipe: 4-6 CCC = 80%, 7-9 CCC = 70%, 10-20 = 50%, ...

In your case, 6 romexes have 12 CCC (hots + neutrals). The highest ampacity of #12 is 30A, so 30A * 50% = 15A. The #12s in your pipe would be reduced to a maximum of 15A.

If you use #10: 40A * 50% = 20A which would be okay for what you need. So you could have a junction box on each side of the pipe, upsize each circuit to #10 through the pipe, then transition back to #12 on the other side.
So where does conduit fill come into play? It seems like you exceed ampacity limits before you hit fill limits?

Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
So the options are: use the larger wire through the pipe
That's a possibility. Too bad I have a bunch of 10/3 not 10/2
I can put the junction box(es) in the knee wall storage, right? I can put more than one branch circuit in a junction box as long as I don't exceed the fill limits, right?
Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
install fewer circuits
That's possible too..
Maybe:
12/3 multi wire branch for the floor heat and the outlet/fan/light for bathroom.
12/2 for other bathroom outlet.
12/2 for all the rest of the outlets
14/2 (existing) for the smokes.
That gives me 9 CCC
There is an existing 14/2 in there now which I can then run all the lights off of (assuming I have less than 1800W total rated. There is also hallway lighting that I need to tie into as well. But I doubt the feed side is closest to my project!
Would that work?
Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
or install a subpanel instead of the individual circuits like pcboss suggested.
I that's the best solution if I can put it in my storage room. It's not a clothes closet! but I'm not sure if the AHJ would let me do that myself! The wire will just be a little more money! (Plus the subpanel!) I was planning on doing the rough first then getting the permit. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!

Thanks for the replies so far.

Jim
 
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Old 03-15-11, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
So where does conduit fill come into play? It seems like you exceed ampacity limits before you hit fill limits?
Both come into play, but the fill limit is really high in this case since you have a 2" pipe. If you had 3/4" pipe, both would be an issue.

I can put the junction box(es) in the knee wall storage, right? I can put more than one branch circuit in a junction box as long as I don't exceed the fill limits, right?
Yes with blank covers, and yes.

14/2 (existing) for the smokes.
Sure that's not 14-3?

That gives me 9 CCC
Actually 8, MWBC counts as two CCC. Unless your smokes actually have 14-3 like they probably do...then you're back at 9.

Would that work?
Sounds reasonable.

I that's the best solution if I can put it in my storage room.
A panel needs clear space 30" side-to-side, 36" out from the wall. The panel need not be centered in the 30".

The wire will just be a little more money! (Plus the subpanel!)
Maybe, maybe not compared to 6 home runs. The big box stores have subpanel kits for really cheap if you catch a sale.

I was planning on doing the rough first then getting the permit. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!
Not always...some jurisdictions have a punitive fine for work w/o a permit. I've heard as high as 2x in some places.
 
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Old 03-15-11, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Sure that's not 14-3?

Actually 8, MWBC counts as two CCC. Unless your smokes actually have 14-3 like they probably do...then you're back at 9.
Yup.. I meant 14/3!
A panel needs clear space 30" side-to-side, 36" out from the wall. The panel need not be centered in the 30".
What do you mean 36"? The opposite wall has to be 3' away?
Maybe, maybe not compared to 6 home runs. The big box stores have subpanel kits for really cheap if you catch a sale.
I already have a bunch of 12/2!

Not always...some jurisdictions have a punitive fine for work w/o a permit. I've heard as high as 2x in some places.
Well lets hope that this isn't the case! Worst case I can just rip the wires out!

so if I go with the subpanel.... What size wire and panel should I get?

That also mean I'll have to run the feed wire above the joists (since I can't go in between the strapping.) If I do that, I need to run a 2x4 on either side of it, right?

Thanks again!

Jim
 
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Old 03-15-11, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
What do you mean 36"? The opposite wall has to be 3' away?
The opposite wall, and any other type of obstruction like shelving, appliances, other utilities, etc. Door paths may obstruct the zone as long as they can swing clear of it.

What size wire and panel should I get?
I would do a 60A subpanel. Feed from a double-pole 60A breaker in the main, run #6-3g NM-B cable, the subpanel can be main lugs type or main breaker type. The subpanel can be 60A or 100A class.

If I do that, I need to run a 2x4 on either side of it, right?
The #6 cable is substantial enough to nail directly to the joists using "U" staples.
 
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Old 03-15-11, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
I that's the best solution if I can put it in my storage room. It's not a clothes closet! but I'm not sure if the AHJ would let me do that myself! The wire will just be a little more money! (Plus the subpanel!) I was planning on doing the rough first then getting the permit. Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!
It's almost certainly better to get the permit first before you start any of the work. You're basically covering yourself if something horrible goes wrong during construction and the preliminary drawings (which will be pretty simplistic in this case) may bring up a code compliance issue that you didn't know about that would be much easier to fix before rather than after running everything.

There should be no reason the AHJ would have any issue with you installing a subpanel (if that's the direction you go) as long as it's code compliant. Generally local codes either allow homeowners to do electrical work on their house or not. There is rarely (never?) constraints on what can/can't be done.
 
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Old 03-15-11, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
The #6 cable is substantial enough to nail directly to the joists using "U" staples.
It doesn't have to be protected laying on the top of a joist in an unfinished attic with a scuttle hole acess less than 6' away?
Jim
 
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Old 03-15-11, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Zorfdt View Post
It's almost certainly better to get the permit first before you start any of the work. You're basically covering yourself if something horrible goes wrong during construction and the preliminary drawings (which will be pretty simplistic in this case) may bring up a code compliance issue that you didn't know about that would be much easier to fix before rather than after running everything.

There should be no reason the AHJ would have any issue with you installing a subpanel (if that's the direction you go) as long as it's code compliant. Generally local codes either allow homeowners to do electrical work on their house or not. There is rarely (never?) constraints on what can/can't be done.
Most of the other work is straight forward. I have a plumber doing the plumbing. In MA you can do you own electrical work... I'm just not sure the inspector follows that. I believe he has the power to not give me a permit, right?

Jim
 
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Old 03-15-11, 06:50 PM
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I would do a 60A subpanel. Feed from a double-pole 60A breaker in the main, run #6-3g NM-B cable, the subpanel can be main lugs type or main breaker type. The subpanel can be 60A or 100A class.
Athough I am not a fan of romex in conduit, this was what I was also thinking as I was reading through this thread. The pull should be a snap through 2" conduit.
 
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Old 03-15-11, 08:05 PM
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I have to keep the 14/3 in the conduit as well. Am I still ok running the 6/3 along with it?
 
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Old 03-16-11, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
It doesn't have to be protected laying on the top of a joist in an unfinished attic with a scuttle hole acess less than 6' away?
Jim
Yes it should be protected in the attic. I had thought/assumed you were running in a basement.

I believe he has the power to not give me a permit, right?
Only if he can cite a statute or code article to support his objection. (Or more importantly if your check bounces ) Most places have an appeal process if you run into a problem with a particular inspector.

I have to keep the 14/3 in the conduit as well. Am I still ok running the 6/3 along with it?
Yes.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Yes it should be protected in the attic. I had thought/assumed you were running in a basement.
So a 2x4 on it's side on one side or both sides of the wire?
Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
Only if he can cite a statute or code article to support his objection.
Like if it's a town bylaw or something to require an electrician?

the 6/3NM-B is the ground also #6? One the online things I saw was the ground was like #8 or #10. Not sure if the big box stores will carry the 6/3 NM! I might have to go to an electric supply house for that!

Lowes had a 125A (maybe it was 100A) 6 space (12 circuits) main lug (you said main lug was ok, right?) for like $20! Too bad the wire will be like $80 for 50' Maybe I'l try to run a 12/2 to the sport where I'm going to put the sub panel to see exactly how much I'll need.

Thanks for all the help so far! You guys are fantastic!

Jim
 
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Old 03-16-11, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
So a 2x4 on it's side on one side or both sides of the wire?
One side is fine.

Like if it's a town bylaw or something to require an electrician?
Correct, although this type of thing is usually controlled at the state level unless you are in a very populated city or county.

the 6/3NM-B is the ground also #6? One the online things I saw was the ground was like #8 or #10. Not sure if the big box stores will carry the 6/3 NM! I might have to go to an electric supply house for that!
The ground should be #10 solid in the cable. The big boxes will carry 6-3g NM-B in packages and by the foot, but there's nothing wrong with a local supplier either.

Lowes had a 125A (maybe it was 100A) 6 space (12 circuits) main lug (you said main lug was ok, right?) for like $20!
That would be okay.

Too bad the wire will be like $80 for 50' Maybe I'l try to run a 12/2 to the sport where I'm going to put the sub panel to see exactly how much I'll need.
An inch too short wastes 50', an inch too long wastes an inch. Don't measure too close.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 11:50 AM
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MA is on the 2011 w/ ammendments. Yes switch boxes must contain a grounded conductor with exceptions and MA ammendments.

If you own your single family home and have proof of insurance you are supposed to be able to pull a permit, however I have never heard of an inspector allowing this in MA
 
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Old 03-16-11, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Danny7633 View Post
MA is on the 2011 w/ ammendments. Yes switch boxes must contain a grounded conductor with exceptions and MA ammendments.

If you own your single family home and have proof of insurance you are supposed to be able to pull a permit, however I have never heard of an inspector allowing this in MA
Good to know that we're on 2011.

I'm gearing up for the fight for the permit. I'll have my wiring plan in hand. Hopefully
he'll see that I did my homework. I'm just trying to save several hundred's of $$ and get the wiring the way I want it! I'm going to push this... but not too far! Don't need the inspectors too pissed at me!
 
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Old 03-16-11, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
The ground should be #10 solid in the cable. The big boxes will carry 6-3g NM-B in packages and by the foot, but there's nothing wrong with a local supplier either.
I looked today and neither (Lowes or HD)had 6/3 NM-B
An inch too short wastes 50', an inch too long wastes an inch. Don't measure too close.
Understood. I just want to get into the ballpark. I'll probably add 5' to what I get with the 12/2 run.

Jim
 
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Old 03-16-11, 02:06 PM
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I have purchased 6/3 many times in both Lowes and Home Depot in MA.

If you still cant find it call a supply house.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 03:07 PM
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My local Hd has 6/3G, but plain 6/3 idk.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 03:55 PM
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No manufacturer has made plain 6-3 in years, everyone means 6-3/g (with bare ground) when they say 6-3 or 12-2 or any other typical cable designation.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 04:13 PM
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Thanks for clearing that with me, ibpooks. I got confused not seeing the G.
 
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Old 03-16-11, 06:10 PM
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Like if it's a town bylaw or something to require an electrician?
In my state it's all controlled and regulated at the local level. Some areas are very lenient while other areas require a licensed electrical contractor to perform the work. In these areas, there is generally an allowance for a homeowner to do his own electrical work if he passes a test. Good luck!
 
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Old 03-17-11, 05:49 AM
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Leviton has published a pocket guide for each code cycle for many years, showing major changes. I've gotten them online, and I think at Graybar on the counter. Lots of citations and diagrams, and a few ads of course. Easy for me to understand, anyway.

I just looked it up now and couldn't find it online but they're showing a "code portal" and something about "Captain Code" and "Coming spring 2011" so you might want to do a bit of Googling.
 
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Old 03-18-11, 09:33 AM
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Denied!!!

I talked with the wiring inspector and he said he CAN'T give me a permit without a license. He seems to be under the impression that legally he can't issue a permit without a license. I"m not sure the he's correct or not.. but he said I should try to find an electrician that will let me use his number. He said that's how they get around it. So he's not against me doing my own work, he just thinks he can't do it legally. So now I'm off to find a *nice* electrician in Westminster, MA! Anyone know of one!
 
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Old 03-18-11, 10:15 AM
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Sorry to hear that. Policies like these only serve to encourage homeowners to work under the table. One other avenue you might try is to contact your state's building and code department (different name in every state) to get a clarification on the actual law if it exists.
 
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Old 03-18-11, 03:41 PM
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Similar here. Homeowners can do some minor work. Despite reducing local restrictions a few years ago, the powers that be still felt it necessary to discourage able homeowners. The stated reason is always safety, but when one brings up the point that permitted work is required to be inspected, one is usually shown the upraised palm: "Talk to the Hand!"

Motivations are not required to be rational or reasonable, and it's often alleged that the trades would prefer to have something akin to a medieval guild system. Trades workers may find allies in inspection departments that would prefer to inspect by telephone but will show up on the job if required by law. These interests carry far more weight with elected representatives than the average voter does.

I tried fighting city hall and I gave up. I had to get on with my project, so I looked far and wide and finally got a relative's referral to an electrician who pulled a permit for my branch circuit work while he did the service upgrade, which I was not interested in doing anyway. My work took a month of Sundays; he had the new load center installed in about six hours. Fair deal.

If you're adamant about doing the work yourself, I recommend three light-reading books: Ray Mullin's Electrical Wiring Residential, the NEC Handbook, and Wiring Simplified.

Good luck to you.
 
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Old 03-18-11, 07:27 PM
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he said I should try to find an electrician that will let me use his number. He said that's how they get around it.
In my area, for a licensed contractor to pull a permit for a homeowner to do his own work is cause to lose your license and get a hefty fine if caught, but I know it happens a lot. Evidently, this is much more common in your area since the inspectors are passing the word to homeowners to do it. If this is what you'll be doing, I'd suggest inquiring at your local supply house for the names of a few semi retired electricians who may be interested in getting your permit, but be prepared to pay them!
 
  #32  
Old 03-21-11, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by CasualJoe View Post
In my area, for a licensed contractor to pull a permit for a homeowner to do his own work is cause to lose your license and get a hefty fine if caught, but I know it happens a lot.
The Idea is that the licensed electrician is allowed one unlicensed apprentice to work with them. The homeowner would be that apprentice. I assume the licensed person would inspect the work before they go to the inspector for the official one. So I believe everything is legit that way.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
The Idea is that the licensed electrician is allowed one unlicensed apprentice to work with them. The homeowner would be that apprentice. I assume the licensed person would inspect the work before they go to the inspector for the official one. So I believe everything is legit that way.
That may work in your area, but in my area only contractors are licensed. When it comes to producing employment documents, it's a lose-lose situation for a contractor to pull a permit for a homeowner to do his own work.
 
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Old 03-21-11, 07:08 PM
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I talked with the wiring inspector and he said he CAN'T give me a permit without a license. He seems to be under the impression that legally he can't issue a permit without a license. I"m not sure the he's correct or not.. but he said I should try to find an electrician that will let me use his number. He said that's how they get around it. So he's not against me doing my own work, he just thinks he can't do it legally.
The beauty yet scary part about living in PA: no liscensing requirements.
 
  #35  
Old 04-01-11, 09:00 AM
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Ok.. I got my electrician.. He'll let me do most of the work my self. He just want to tie the sub panel in the main panel himself. Really nice guy. I'll just have to pay him hourly ($80 I think he said) to tie in and inspect my work. Which is fine. I'm still saving a ton of money. I decided to do with a 100A subpanel. So I got some 2/2/2/4 SER.

We were having a discussion about # of outlets on a circuit and I told him I was pretty sure that for residential I could put as many as I wanted. He didn't think so.. but he's mainly commercial.. He said he's check on it. Can you guys point me to
where in the code it's allowed... Or the part where it specifies commercial (as in not dis-allowed for residential)

Also.. can I run the SER across the bottoms of the joists, perpendicular to them
in the basement? I know the regular NM-B can't (without being covered) But my service entrance cable is run that way and not through the I-joists. Is there something about the size of the cable that will allow it?

Thanks!

Jim
 
  #36  
Old 04-01-11, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
I decided to do with a 100A subpanel. So I got some 2/2/2/4 SER.
That's good if your cable is copper, you're limited to 90A if it's aluminum.

where in the code it's allowed... Or the part where it specifies commercial (as in not dis-allowed for residential)
AFAIK there is no mention of it in the NEC.

Also.. can I run the SER across the bottoms of the joists, perpendicular to them
Yes. I believe the requirement is any cable greater than #8 or #6 can be stapled without a running board or bored holes, so you're well in excess of that.
 
  #37  
Old 04-01-11, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
That's good if your cable is copper, you're limited to 90A if it's aluminum.
Why are you using the 75C column?? The electrician said I can us it??
Are you derating for something else?

Edit: Yes it's Al
 
  #38  
Old 04-01-11, 12:39 PM
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As of the 2008 code, SER cable is restricted to the 60C column just like NM-B and UF-B. It's not a big deal to just use the 90A breaker instead of the 100A breaker, the difference in available power would make no difference in 99% of installations.
 
  #39  
Old 04-01-11, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ibpooks View Post
As of the 2008 code, SER cable is restricted to the 60C column just like NM-B and UF-B. It's not a big deal to just use the 90A breaker instead of the 100A breaker, the difference in available power would make no difference in 99% of installations.
I already bought the 100amp breaker and the sub is a 100amp main breaker.

Would 310.15(B) (7) come into play? That table says 100A for #2

Where does it say (for my own benifit) that NM-B and UF-B (and SER) have to use the 60C column? and if I read it right.. the 60C column for #2AL is only 75A?

I looked in 310.104(A) and I couldn't even find NM-B or SER in the type. It's probably elsewhere??

Jim
 
  #40  
Old 04-01-11, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jbuszkie View Post
Would 310.15(B) (7) come into play? That table says 100A for #2
310.15(B)(6) does not apply because that table is only for the main feeder into a dwelling. Subpanel are not included there.

Where does it say (for my own benifit) that NM-B and UF-B (and SER) have to use the 60C column? and if I read it right.
Art 334.80 limits the ampacity of NM cable to 60C. Art 338.10(B)(4) says that when SER is used indoors (essentially instead of NM) that it must follow art 334. Some quick googling has revealed that many jurisdictions seem to have added local exceptions to this article though, so your electrician may be right about your local code. However, if you follow unmodified NEC 2008 the #2 aluminum is good to 75A (round up to 80A breaker).

Perhaps one of the guys who knows more about 2011 code can clarify if this has been continued in the latest revision? I assume it is probably the same as 2008.

. the 60C column for #2AL is only 75A?
You're right, I was thinking of #1 for some reason.
 
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