Pump and External outlet wiring mess.

Reply

  #1  
Old 03-31-11, 11:18 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Question Pump and External outlet wiring mess.

Greetings DIYers. I'm guessing there's also some knowledgeable electricians that stop by here too?

I've had terrible luck with contractors lately, basically doing a job 1/2 way, taking a draw and then not coming back, and then finding out because there's no more $$$ left in the job leaving me to either do it myself or pay double to get it done.

So my current problem is this. I have a new Koi pond that's almost done. The pump is installed and is running. There's a 12"x12" weather proof box next to the pump that is intended to hold an outlet for LV lighting transformer as well as the wiring for the pump goes through that. The contractor got the pump going, but did not complete the LV outlet. I don't mind getting into the wiring stuff, but I'm unsure if he pulled enough wires and if there are enough if what I have in mind will work. So...

There are 5 separate wiring coming into the box. 3 white, 1 black, 1 green. The pump is a 220 20amp pump, which I understand needs 2 hot and a neutral (or ground?). The pump is using 2 white, and 1 green. The other black/white are not used, at least in the 12x12 box. There's also another green wire coming from the pump's chassis into this box.

At the Panel: The 2 whites have black electrical tape on them (I suppose to change their color to black so it looks right in the panel!?!) and each of those are going to a 220 20amp breaker. However, when I follow the green wire I find that it's tape up with the other spare white and black wires and IS NOT hooked up anywhere! But the pump is working? Is that because it has the 220v, but if something electrical was to go wrong there would be a major issue without a neutral/ground, right?

Anyways, I'm kind of stuck on how to complete the 110v outlet for the LV transformer with what I have left and also give the pump the neutral. As I understand it Neutral and Ground are the same connection in a panel? So to wire my 110v I use the remaining black for hot, the remaining white for Neutral, but the outlet also has a ground wire. Is it okay to tie the Green wiring that's not hooked to anything into the ground of the pump, the ground of the outlet, and then tie it in the panel into the Neutral/Ground bar?

I hope I'm making it clear, I'm just baffled how someone can take my money and then leave something like that for someone else to clean up and fix, especially when I think it's quite dangerous the way it's left.

Help!

-SactoBob.

P.S. Should my Contractor happen to be on this forum, expect to here from your Bond company shortly....
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 04-01-11, 03:25 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
Jezz.,

I am not sure where to start but first thing first.,

can you tell me the following list if you can understand it.

Conductor size { like 12 AWG or 14 AWG etc etc }

Conductor type { Like THHN/THWN or UF or others }

The numbers of conductors don't really sound right unless it a two circuit set up at all.

And hate to be harsh but the way it set up I think that contractor whom done the wiring is not qualifed at all there are too many thing is wrong allready.

Did that contractor pull the permit for this type of work ?? if not that is a major red flag on this one.

A real licesed electrician will know the proper conductor and type and proper hook up without any issue.

How far this weatherproof box is from the house panel ?

I don't know if you can do this or not but can you post us the photo what it set up one of us will indentify it quick to make sure it is legit.

You can post the attachment thru few website and post it here with a http://forum.doityourself.com/electr...your-post.html

Merci,
Marc
 
  #3  
Old 04-01-11, 11:34 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Conductor size: All say 12awg/600v and THWN.

We are talking to circuits, and two breakers once it's all done. the 1 220v/20am for the pump, and then another 20amp 110v for the LV transformer.

The box is within view of the panel a few feet away, so no separate breaker is needed. I learned that because both AC units are next to the panel too.

Once this is all done, the whole area with pump and box will also be getting an enclosure built around it too.

 
  #4  
Old 04-01-11, 12:08 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
This is not how I would do it and there is very little of it I would try to salvage. First you can not use two white wires for the 240v (not 220v) for the pump. Color is not code compliant.

Since you say everything is going to be enclosed I would replace the 12X12 box with a 60 amp main lug weather proof sub panel. You can use the existing conduit To connect to it.

The #12 green is ok for ground. One of the whites is OK for neutral. Use the other wires to pull in two #10 black THWN wires. When through you should have one #12 green, one #12 white, and two #10 black.

At the beaker box you would install a 30amp 2 pole breaker (240v breaker). Assuming the breaker box is the main panel the blacks would go to the breaker and the green and white to the neutral bar.

At the subpanel near the fountain you would need to add a ground bar and be sure the neutral bar is isolated.

The two blacks go to the main lugs. The white to the neutral bar, green to ground bar.

Using conduit nipples attach two weather tight single gang boxes to the subpanel.

In one install a 15amp duplex 120v receptacle with in-use cover, In the other install a L6-20r 240v receptacle to plug the pump into.

Install a single pole 20amp breaker and a double pole 20 amp breaker in the subpanel and connect your receptacles to these.

Install a matching cord set on the pump. If the pump uses 12 amps or less use a 15 amp two pole breaker and a L6-15r receptacle.

You will also need to drive a ground rod for the subpanel. You may use #10 bare or green to wire it.
 
  #5  
Old 04-01-11, 12:21 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Ouch... FYI, as you can see the pump is direct wired, oh and it's a 4amp pump. As I said on the first post, he used the 2 whites, but on the panel side they are taped up with black tape, and are in the panel like that (his idea of coloring what he had available I'd guess). Since the box is within 10feet from panel, I'm told I do not need to turn this into a sub-panel setup, though I certainly see the advantages, but that's beyond my expertise and I'm unable to afford another contractor right now, I'd really like to use what is there if possible! Can I drive a ground rod in and create a new ground for the 120v receptacle and pump chassis, and use the green for the 240 circuit as the neutral/ground in the panel, I can tape it up white too. Then use the 1 white/1 black spares as the 20amp 120v? Just as long as I can re-use what's there hopefully and not start all over. The pond is going to cost me an additional $5,000 to have it fixed properly so my Koi won't go belly-up, so I'm way over budget now and short of options.
 
  #6  
Old 04-01-11, 01:45 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
The the 240 v receptacle must be wired with green for ground and two more wires not green, not white not gray. The usual colors would be black and or red.
he used the 2 whites, but on the panel side they are taped up with black tape,
It is not code compliant to remark wires smaller then #4. There are limited exceptions bu they don't apply here.

A ground rod is for lightning protection not equipment grounding. If you do not use a subpanel for this no ground rod is used.

The green wire can be used as ground for both the pump and receptacle.

Since the box is within 10feet from panel, I'm told I do not need to turn this into a sub-panel setup, though I certainly see the advantages, but that's beyond my expertise and I'm unable to afford another contractor right now,
The cost of materials to use a subpanel would probably been less. If you had done it your self, and it is easy to do, the cost would have probably been less then $50.

Using what you have use one black and red for the pump. Connect to a 15 amp 240v breaker at the panel.

Replce one of the whites with a black. Use a black and a white for your 120v receptacle. It must be a GFCI receptacle. You can use a 20 amp single pole breaker.

Tie to pigtails to the green and use one for the 240 and one for the 120v receptacle.

At the breaker box connect the black and red for the pump to the 240v GFCI breaker and the black of the 120v receptacle to the 120v breaker. Connect the gren and two whites to the neutral bar.

This is an easy DIY. Additional materials if you have the correct breakers will be less then $40. Only simple hand tools are need.

 

Last edited by ray2047; 04-01-11 at 03:01 PM.
  #7  
Old 04-01-11, 02:37 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Thank you so much for the help!

I have another question regarding the GFCI receptacle you mentioned. The receptacle I want to put in is an Insteon on/off that'll let me remotely turn LV light on/off as well as on a schedule. I'm sure that is not a GFCI though, can I put a 2gang box there with a GFCI and tie that into it? I'll also want to eventually extend that GFCI to a future BBQ that is located about 15ft away and has a conduit in the slab already, it's the 1/2 inch one in the picture just behind the 1 inch.

I'm going to run down to Lowes this weekend first and see what the pricing is for this, if like you say under $100, I think I'll just do it the "right way" as you suggest. The panel is running low on slots, and swapping to a 30amp sub-panel (I assume with a 30/30 quad) will free up at least one slot, maybe 2, but also make the sub-panel side wiring much easier I think too.

Thank again,

SactoBob
 
  #8  
Old 04-01-11, 02:44 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
can I put a 2gang box there with a GFCI and tie that into it?
Yes. Power in to line load to the remote switch. I added a diagram to my previous post while you were posting. Note this is representative only. The inside of your breaker box may be different.

You need a GFCI breaker for the fountain 240v.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 04-01-11 at 03:02 PM.
  #9  
Old 04-01-11, 03:04 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post

You need a GFCI breaker for the fountain 240v.
Yep, and I bet those don't come in a quad config, all the more reason now to go to a sub-panel there...
 
  #10  
Old 04-01-11, 03:13 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
Post the make and model number of your breaker box and one of the pros may be able to suggest a suitable breaker.

Just to add you only need a 15a breaker and #14 wire for the pump. If the distance is truly 10 feet you might be able to use 25 feet of black #14THWN and cut in half. I'd go with 30 feet though just to be sure.
 
  #11  
Old 04-01-11, 04:25 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Post the make and model number of your breaker box and one of the pros may be able to suggest a suitable breaker..
It's a Squared D panel. I just checked the measure, didn't account for going down 2ft in conduit and then back up 5 ft to panel. Probably safe to say 20' of wire, I'll get a 50' roll of #10 and plan on putting a sub-panel there as you suggested. Do I need a 60amp SP as you mentioned or is that the smallest they come for 2 breaker setups?
 
  #12  
Old 04-01-11, 04:51 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
Why do you need a quad?

60 amp main lug breaker boxes are common and cheap.
 
  #13  
Old 04-01-11, 05:10 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
Why do you need a quad?

60 amp main lug breaker boxes are common and cheap.
Originally I was thinking quad if I stayed in the main panel. But now with an SP no need...

For the two circuits we've talked about, a 15amp 240v gfci breaker and a 20amp 120v breaker right?

I found one at lowes for $25! Wow... What a waste that the contractor didn't just do this, still have to buy the breakers, and that box that is there now was about $19. Sigh... And Lowes has a $10 off with a $50 purchase, which I'll hit for sure after the wiring and the correct breakers....


Item #: 12566 | Model #: W0204ML1060U
60-Amp 2/4 Outdoor Main Lug Load Center

60 amp
2 spaces, 4 circuits
Outdoor type nema 3R
Suitable for use as service entrance

Edit: Better yet, found a Square-D one at Lowes also for $24, I have a 20amp SQ-D breaker so just need the other 240v gfci and #10 wiring... Looking much brighter now vs. the pond mess I'll need to deal with...
 
  #14  
Old 04-01-11, 09:33 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
Not mentioned in your list. You will need a 2 pole 30 amp breaker in the main panel to feed the subpanel. You will need a ground bar kit for the subpanel and a ground rod. Since the pump is only 4 amps if you already have an unused 20a 2 pole the electrician installed you could use that and then upgrade to 30a if needed.
 
  #15  
Old 04-06-11, 11:45 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Progress!

Had a 30amp/20amp quad. Move a double to the other 30amp/20amp quad, and popped the spare quad into that. Ended up pulling 4 #10 2blacks, white, and green. Wow wire is pricey these days! So now I have 30amp to this subpanel with a 20amp/20amp quad. middle is pump (4 amp max), I'll use one 20amp for that LV transformer and now I have a spare that I'll run out to gazebo with an outdoor gfci outlet there. Still have to put the weather proof dual-gang in and I'm going to put a junction box in also to run all the separate LVs into +/- bars so it's not a tangle of wires..

 
  #16  
Old 04-06-11, 02:54 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
Good progress. Thanks for letting us know.
 
  #17  
Old 04-06-11, 06:20 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Thanks... One thing I was told by the electrician on-duty at Lowes was to save the hassle of pounding in a ground rod as I'm carrying over the ground from the main panel. Is that okay or should the ground rod be installed? I do have a rotary hammer to do it.
 
  #18  
Old 04-06-11, 06:49 PM
Justin Smith's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cressona, Pa, USA
Posts: 2,546
told by the electrician on-duty at Lowes
They're usually clueless, and they would probably actually be working in the field rather than lowe's. Unless they're retired. I would sink a rod just in case the panel gets struck.
 
  #19  
Old 04-06-11, 07:25 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,051
As of the 2008 code a subpanel not within the same structure as the main panel requires a ground rod even if there are no other metallic pathways.
 
  #20  
Old 04-06-11, 08:03 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,385
I was told by the electrician on-duty at Lowes
Hahahahaha If he's really an electrician, he's the only electrician Lowes has on staff!
 
  #21  
Old 04-06-11, 08:51 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by CasualJoe View Post
Hahahahaha If he's really an electrician, he's the only electrician Lowes has on staff!
LOL, that's funny!

Originally Posted by ray2047 View Post
As of the 2008 code a subpanel not within the same structure as the main panel requires a ground rod even if there are no other metallic pathways.
Ah, if it's in the code then I'll do it, I'd rather be extra safe. The whole area, pump. filter, and sub-panel will eventually get a cinder-block enclosure with an access door in the front.

@Justin, yeah he looked retired...
 
  #22  
Old 04-07-11, 02:05 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: NE Wis / Paris France{ In France for now }
Posts: 4,808
That look better however you still volating one more code any circuit have to be GFCI so you will need a GFCI breaker or receptle to meet the code in this area and there is not much leeway with the codes realted to swimming pool / spas

Merci,
Marc
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes