Panel question

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  #1  
Old 05-20-11, 08:12 PM
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Panel question

I am getting ready to do the installation of a sub-panel in my basement appox. 3 feet from the main. This main panel has 200 Amp service in a Square D QOC30U Series G1 30 slot panel. Here is how the panel is presently configured, (slot) (Amp)
LEG A; (#1)15a (#3)15A (5)20A (7)15A (9)15A (11)15A (13)20A (15-17)40A-2P(microwave)(19)20A (21)20A (23)20A (25) 20A
(27-29)40A-2P (cooktop)

LEG B: (2) 20A(SUMP) (4)20A (6)15A (8)15A (10)15A (12)15A (16-18)30A(DRYER) (20)15A (22-24)20A-2P(bath wall assist. heat)
(26-28)20A(kitchen kick-toe heat) (30) BLANK

I want to make room for the 40 amp feed to the sub-panel. Rather than reconfigure the whole present panel I intend to take #2 (sump) and 26-28 (kit.toe kick htr) out and re-install into the new sub. Making room for the 2pole 40amp breaker, in place of the 2P 20A, and not stressing the main panel.

The sub-panel I am going to utilize is a GE TLM 612 F1 120/240 125 with cap of 6- 1" THQL and 12- 1/2inch THQP. connected to main with 8/3 wire
So at the sub I will also add (3) 15A 1/2 THQP (1) 20A 1/2.
In addition to the 20A sump breaker and the 20A 2Pole toe kick heater. Also half-inch.
These additional breakers are all for outside circuits (lighting,(sodium/spots) and convenience outlets at the patio.
If room I may add one 15a, or 20a, for a socket by boiler to facilitate any vaccuums,lights, etc needed in that area.

Does this sound feasilble or am I overreaching here? Any problem with so much on one leg and light on the other?
 
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  #2  
Old 05-21-11, 05:19 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
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First of all, a QOC30U is a panel cover and door and not a panel.
Product Detail : QOC30UF LOAD CENTER COVER QO - Schneider Electric

Second, if you have a 200 amp panel, a 40 amp subfeed isn't large enough in my opinion. I would not use a subfeed any smaller than 60 amp. Since you have a 200 amp service now, why not install a 100 amp subfeed to the new 20 circuit MLO copper bus subpanel? Also my opinion, you are being a bit too thrifty here. Why did you happen to choose GE and the half size THQP breakers? I always thought they were an OK choice (not a GREAT choice) till I recently saw one that caught on fire.
 
  #3  
Old 05-21-11, 06:07 AM
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If you have a QO main panel, why not use a QO subpanel, so you can interchange the breakers? Also, I personally do not like GE panels, and I have one in the house I am in now.

Secondly, all of the circuts you mentioned in the subpanel require gfi protection, so I would install 1 big gfi breaker in the main panel to protect the subpanel and save money.
 
  #4  
Old 05-21-11, 06:40 AM
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I don't install GE but I suspect that the 240 breakers will require full size breakers that will quickly fill up that small subpanel.

If the sump is 240 it would not require GFI protection. Also the lighting does not require GFI protection unless the manufacturer calls for it.
 
  #5  
Old 05-21-11, 09:45 AM
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GE makes the thin Type THQP breakers in the 2 pole format through 50 amps that I know of. I am not sure if the THQP style is available in anything higher than 50 amps. The one I saw that had been on fire appeared to have been caused by a bus connection on either a 20 amp 1 pole or a 30 amp 2 pole. It's hard to tell for sure after the fact because there isn't much left. The last I heard was that GE had not acknowledged the report of a problem. Maybe if they ignore it, it will go away.
 
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Old 05-21-11, 09:53 AM
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I agree with Justin. I would also go with another QO panel for the sub.
 
  #7  
Old 05-21-11, 11:30 AM
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Choosing the GE was not a primary choice. Several years ago I decided to go from 100 amp to 200 amp with a sub for the outside. The electrician had obtained GE products, the main and a sub (the tlm) for this and they were delievered, I had them, and was stuck with them and I am not a member of the GE fan club! Just prior to this installation he departed this world and I had to get a new contractor. Hard when your job requires you a lot and you aren't home.
Anyway, the new contractor put in the service and used the Square D that is presently there with no sub. This was several years ago. Well I am home now and recent events have determined that ALL the outside circuits are on the sump circuit! So when it malfunctions it all goes!
I was able to barter the main off for something else, awhile ago, but still had the sub. That is why I was thinking of using it. Believe me I am NOT content with two different panel mfgrs! Interchangeability/commonality is a great for part procurement and troubleshooting with one source reference.

At present the outdoor sockets ARE GFI protected at the socket, as will any new ones, the rest are just security lighting. With all on one circuit I had a heck of a problem during a storm when falling trees took out some circuits and I lost the sump! I was starting to feel like "Das Boote" without the sump! That is why I want the sub for outside to seperate all those circuits!

I think 100 amp sub would be overkill as I do not use heavy machinery and accept for a small aircompressor there is not much demand. The idea of 60 Amp is rolling around in my brain thoagh. At present, basement power is already adequately supplied by other circuits. That is what I was using for as a baseline. But who knows what the future will bring. So instead of #8/3 I might just use #6/3 for feed.

As to moving the 2Poles that was because, as Murphy would plan it, the 20 amp sump is at the top and the empty is at the bottom!!!! Would require moving EVERYTHING up one circuit to get two together for a two pole. Lot more potential for problems then just moving a 20 Amp 2Pole to make room. But as #4 pointed out, and I was wondering about, with the 2-Poles that little box would fill quicker than a lifeboat on a sinking ship!

So I guess I will just get the friendly electrical supply warehouse to get me a Square D sub, and CB's, and then would the original plan sound alright! Just moving the [email protected] to make room? Heck I could leave the Sump alone as I have found where the circuits branch and could seperate and run new from the box to those circuits.

I am posting all this as I want to clear misconceptions and when it comes to safety I am not stingy! I have had seen, and smelled, the results of fires and electrocution up close and personal so I know what the dangers are and I do not want to change my nickname to "Crispy". That is already a character on the Simpsons, IIRC.

Anyone know someone who will want to barter for a GE-TLM612?
 

Last edited by Bob M; 05-21-11 at 11:39 AM. Reason: continuity
  #8  
Old 05-21-11, 12:29 PM
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You don't need to move every breaker up one slot. You only need to move one breaker to get two spaces on top of each other.
 
  #9  
Old 05-21-11, 03:47 PM
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PCBOSS;
Thanks for the reply and bearing with me here. That is what I am trying to figure out, getting two together! Like herding cats, can never seem to get them all together!!
At present the bottom is blank then the next up are the 2 two pole CB's. Then all are filled till I get to the sump CB on top. There also isn't enough spare wire to enable me to move a single down to the blank. Only option would be to add a section of wire to the number 4 spot wire to move that down then move the sump to the sub. That would give me two spaces on top. Actually trying to avoid splices in the box, if possible, as that is just something that could go wrong. Maybe it is just me that feels that way.
Maybe I should go new Square D box/60Amp. Move toe kick two pole to sub (hardly ever goes on I have it so low) then put the 60A , as panel feed, in the place of the 40A-2P with 6/3 to the sub.

That sound better?
 
  #10  
Old 05-21-11, 08:48 PM
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The splice in the panel is not a problem.
 
  #11  
Old 05-22-11, 08:02 AM
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A properly made splice in the panel is no more of a problem than anywhere else in the system.
 
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