Well pump counter: how to work around extraneous pulses?

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  #1  
Old 08-03-11, 11:50 AM
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Well pump counter: how to work around extraneous pulses?

I installed a digital counter on my well pump so I could monitor how many times it has cycled.

Before I purchased the counter I asked the counter manufacturer if it will work for my application. Their reply was "...the unit should work in the application. The only caveat to this is that sometimes, motors and pumps will produce extra pulses when they are turned off, and these pulses may look like real signals that the counter will want to count."

It turns out that this is the case in my application. The counter increments once when the pump engages, and then 2 or 3 more times when it turns off. The goal of my query is to find a way to make the counter increment only once per pump on/off cycle and not the 3 or 4 as it currently does.

The counter's specs say it will register up to 40 pulses per second.

The first thing I thought of doing is illustrated below:



The possible problem with this configuration is that the pump may pass pulses on to the counter when it turns off before the relay opens.

Alternatives I am considering:

1) Use a delay on break relay

2) Use a standard relay and have the power that increments the counter come from a source other than the pump motor.

My questions are:

A) Is it likely that the illustrated configuration above will not solve the issue?

B) If A is true, then what would be the easiest, cheapest way to solve the issue?

I would prefer the solution be something that fits in a single gang electrical wall box that already houses a panel lamp and the counter (however, I think there is room to switch to a double gang box if necessary).
 
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  #2  
Old 08-03-11, 12:06 PM
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Could you use two 100-watt bulbs, each one connecting between a hot leg and neutral?

This pump is 240V single phase, correct?
 
  #3  
Old 08-03-11, 02:14 PM
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It isn't apparent as to why you are getting extra "pulses and it is hard to know if your cct will work.
Does the original connection have the counter connected in parallel with the motor's power supply, so that each time the motor is energized it causes the counter to measure one run?

Not exactly sure why you would do this.
Normally you are concerned about cycling when you set up the original installation.
Based on your water demand pumps are designed to have minimum run and off times when cycling and it is the pneumatic tank that does this.

Once you have established that your pneumatic tank is correct would not hours of run be more useful?
 
  #4  
Old 08-03-11, 06:37 PM
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It isn't apparent as to why you are getting extra "pulses and it is hard to know if your cct will work.
Does the original connection have the counter connected in parallel with the motor's power supply, so that each time the motor is energized it causes the counter to measure one run?
I am unfamiliar with what a "cct" is. Also, I am not clear on what you mean by "original connection."

Not exactly sure why you would do this.

Once you have established that your pneumatic tank is correct would not hours of run be more useful?
The application is a mobile home and someone installed a pressure tank (under the MH) meant for a vertical installation in the horizontal position, hence the drawdown is 1.6 gallons instead of the rated 5.8 gallons.

Plus, the flow of the well is very low and I need to monitor accurately how much water is used so I can get a good idea of how much water can be used before running the well dry (and having to wait 20 minutes or so for it to fill again).

Hence, one reason I want to do this is so I know which appliances, fixtures, and activities use what amount of water since I am limited in available water supply.

(Yes, hours of run may be more useful under normal circumstances.)

There are a couple of other reasons I wanted the counter, including giving me an indication that there may be a leak somewhere where it's not obvious.

Until I decide to spend the $300 for a new tank and/or $800 to $2000 for well cleaning/blasting/drilling (or whatever else the five different well drilling contractors said - they all gave different answers, of course), I want to know how to ration out the water so I don't end up with me or my guests running out of water in the middle of a shower or washing cycle or whatever.

Could you use two 100-watt bulbs, each one connecting between a hot leg and neutral?
That may work and would be inexpensive but it would be as much if not more trouble than my alternative idea of using a standard relay and have the power that increments the counter come from a source other than the pump motor.

I appreciate the help so far and I welcome more comments.
 
  #5  
Old 08-04-11, 05:07 PM
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The application is a mobile home and someone installed a pressure tank (under the MH) meant for a vertical installation in the horizontal position, hence the drawdown is 1.6 gallons instead of the rated 5.8 gallons.

Plus, the flow of the well is very low and I need to monitor accurately how much water is used so I can get a good idea of how much water can be used before running the well dry (and having to wait 20 minutes or so for it to fill again).
So......how will counting pump cycles help you? Maybe what you need is a flow meter.
 
  #6  
Old 08-04-11, 06:10 PM
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You are correct that the off cycle will still occur at the same time the motor is turning off and you risk the same multiple pulse problem. If you could let the relay drop out a second or so after the counter registers the cycle, the power should not be affected by any transitions from the motor. Essentially make the relay into a one shot that delivers a pulse to the counter. Any other contacts on the relay you want to use?

Bud
 
  #7  
Old 08-04-11, 06:13 PM
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how will counting pump cycles help you?
Number of cycles X drawdown = amount of water used.

Maybe what you need is a flow meter.
I'm open to the suggestion, but I don't know much about flow meters. My impression is that a quality meter costs a lot more than a counter and relay. Plus, a flow meter would require extra labor for the plumbing, it is another connection meaning another potential trouble spot, is much more difficult to locate remotely, and it would be difficult to install in such a way that would not take up a lot of room and look unsightly.

With a counter, I can run the wires to a convenient location so I can read it from inside the MH, install it in a small, neat enclosure, and not have to go outside, take off the skirt, and get down on my hands and knees to look at a flow meter (which could easily occur at night in pouring rain).

Even though there may be a better way (in an ideal situation) to address one of my reasons, I still have other reasons to want to count pump cycles and I already have the counter installed.

So, if there is anyone on this forum that knows the answers to my two original questions, I would be very grateful for the response.
 
  #8  
Old 08-04-11, 06:21 PM
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Sorry for the abbreviation.........cct means circuit.

I see what you want to do with your relay now but it isn't really going to give you any useful information.
Cycling will not be accurate because it does not take into account how much water will be delivered with each cycle and how much water will be delivered per cycle.
Fill a bath tub or clothes washer or fill a pot of water all could be one cycle.
I can't think of any way you will be able to predict when your well will draw down to a critical level because your measurements don't take into account the time between cycles.

Besides over drawing your well you should be concerned about the improperly installed pneumatic tank.
You will soon kill your pump motor from short cycling.
The tank's main job besides delivering water without the pump running is to control how long your pump runs when it cycles.
Here is some useful information on tank sizing.

A water meter would be the most useful but you would still need to factor in the amount of time between water use.
 

Last edited by GregH; 08-04-11 at 08:04 PM.
  #9  
Old 08-04-11, 08:32 PM
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You say the tank is only holding 1.6 gallons due to being installed improperly.. Is your pump running the well dry on one fillup (meaning you only have at most 3.2 gallons of water available at any given time before the well has to recharge)? The well definitely needs to be drilled deeper or relocated if it's recharging that slow.

But my suggestion before anything else would be to relocate the tank outside the MH so that you can stand it up and get its full capacity. Its one pipe, not brain surgery, and you could always plant a bush in front of it to hide it.
 
  #10  
Old 08-05-11, 09:01 AM
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Mounting the tank outdoors in Ohio would be a bad idea. It would be a good test to temporarily relocate it upright though.
 
  #11  
Old 08-05-11, 09:26 AM
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Mounting the tank outdoors in Ohio would be a bad idea. It would be a good test to temporarily relocate it upright though.
He could always wrap it in heat trace tape and a bat of insulation
 
  #12  
Old 08-05-11, 10:11 AM
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Didn't notice the location, but it's currently under the MH skirt, which is unconditioned space anyway. My experience with well tanks is that they are mounted in a place where freezing is unlikely - whether in a basement or well pit.. But under a MH in Ohio is not protected from freezing.
 
  #13  
Old 08-05-11, 04:29 PM
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I see what you want to do with your relay now but it isn't really going to give you any useful information.
Cycling will not be accurate because it does not take into account how much water will be delivered with each cycle and how much water will be delivered per cycle.
Fill a bath tub or clothes washer or fill a pot of water all could be one cycle.
My point exactly when I suggested a meter.
 
  #14  
Old 08-05-11, 05:38 PM
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Cycling will not be accurate because it does not take into account how much water will be delivered with each cycle and how much water will be delivered per cycle. Fill a bath tub or clothes washer or fill a pot of water all could be one cycle.
That does not seem logical to me. I want to be clear that I am not challenging you because there is a good chance you have more experience with such things than I do. In that spirit, please help me to understand the flaw in my logic (Perhaps there is a misunderstanding of some part of this conversation?) :

The system has a 40/60 switch. When the pressure drops to 40psi, the pump turns on. When the pressure reaches 60psi, the pump turns off. The amount of water delivered in that one pump cycle is 1.6 gallons.

I don't see how it's (hypothetically) possible that I can fill a bathtub (~20 gallons) or fill a pot of water (~ 1 gallon) each with one cycle of the pump.
 
  #15  
Old 08-05-11, 06:18 PM
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The pump is not going to cycle everytime a faucet is used. If I run my sprinkler my pump comes on and will never turn off until I shut the sprinkler off.

So its one cycle and 1600 gallons.

Or I could take a shower and use 20 gals on one cycle.

The reason behind it is the pump has to pump more GPM then you are using for the pump to turn off.

So if I have a 5gpm pump and two showers are in use @ 2.5 gpm each shower the pump will settle at 50 psi and keep running to meet the demand. It will never build up enough pressure to overcome the use until you turn off a shower or showers.

So a cycle can last 5 minutes or 24 hours with very different gallon usage.

Mike NJ
 
  #16  
Old 08-05-11, 07:59 PM
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It would be helpful for you to be making a few measurements to get a rough idea about how much water you are delivering.

First, run some water until the pump starts then shut off the tap.
When the pump stops then turn on the tap that gives you the highest flow rate and measure how much water gets delivered for the pump to start.
This is your pneumatic tank draw-down.

Then, after the pump shuts off run the water at the same location not catching the water this time.
Once the pump starts begin catching the water and then let your container fill for exactly one minute.........This will be your approximate delivery in gallons/min.
Obviously this is very a very rough test but the closer to the pump you draw the water the more accurate it will be.

Once you know how many gallons your pump is delivering per minute you can then start the same tap flowing and immediately begin timing...........if you then let the pump run until you draw down he well you will have determined your approximate well capacity.
This would be a reasonably good estimate of how much water would be available from your well.

Do you understand Mike's description of why the counter will not do much for you?
Put another way, if you fill a pot that causes your pump to start, for a large pot you might get 1 1/2 gallons for one cycle.
Then you begin filling the tub, the pump starts but it continues to run until the tub fills and you shut off the tap then the pump shuts off........You get one cycle and delivered what, twenty pots of water!

I am quite sure the numbers we are using are not totally accurate because if there is a lot of piping to your tub the pump could cycle off but hopeful you get what we are saying.

I think at least you would do well to do the checks I suggested and pay mind to that link about pneumatic tanks.
You will seriously shorten the life of your pump if it cycles too often and runs only a short while to fill the tank.

Not sure whether this would be feasible for you but in areas where usage exceeds a well's capacity, folks will install a cistern that can store a large amount of water.
They then have the pump fill the cistern controlled by a float switch at a rate the well can handle.
 
  #17  
Old 08-05-11, 08:33 PM
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Thank you for your input, Mike.

I understand what you explained and it makes sense. I would not expect my "counter" method to be accurate in situations where the flow was relatively high for the reason you state.

(As a side note, I have never encountered a situation where my pump ran constantly. I can open the hydrant, which is near the wellhead, has a 3/4" valve, and has no restrictions and the pump still cycles.)

My idea is to measure lower flow situations and compare relatively similar circumstances. For instance, the kitchen faucet and a low-flow shower head should be relatively close to each other in their flow rate.

And, if I want to monitor the amount of water used in higher-flow situations, I can conduct a one-time test of each application by taking actual measurements of the water used per pump cycle and record that info and use that record so that the counter is "calibrated" to that particular use. For example, the hydrant fully open may use 3 gallons per cycle and once I know that, I can have a pretty accurate figure of the amount of water used per cycle for that particular use.
 
  #18  
Old 08-05-11, 08:46 PM
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Greg, I did not see your post until after I posted mine (#17).

Do you understand Mike's description of why the counter will not do much for you?
Yes, his description filled in one piece of the puzzle that I was missing.

Then you begin filling the tub, the pump starts but it continues to run until the tub fills and you shut off the tap then the pump shuts off........You get one cycle and delivered what, twenty pots of water!
That is a point where some misunderstanding came into play. As in my response to Mike, if I fill the tub, the pump still cycles...(please refer to post #17 for further comments regarding this).
 
  #19  
Old 08-05-11, 08:50 PM
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hi ruauu2

Mike and Greg gave you a much more straight forward answer than my stuff below.

Im just a newbie and never had a well and pump until not long ago. Scratched my head many times trying to figure this stuff out.

I kind of wrote the examples below for myself a while ago because I was getting all wrapped around the axle about this pumping stuff, and pressure tanks, drawdown etc. I tried to convince myself how things work by writing a few examples and then validating with a wristwatch. So I think these make sense (if not someone will jump in.lol)

For example, my pumps does 8.5 gals/min and my tank has a drawdown between 60 psi and 40 psi of about 10.5 gallons. So in other words if my tank is sitting there pumped up to 60 psi and I open the hose bib at the tank, when I let 10.5 gals run out the pressure drops to 40 at the tank and the pump comes on. If I close the hose bib as soon as the pump comes on it takes about 75-80 seconds to pump (it's doing the 8.5 gals/min) the tank back up to 60 replacing the 10.5 gals and the switch shuts the pump off.

So in that pump on-off cycle the pump discharged 10.5 gals in ~ 1.25 mins (i.e. 10.5/8.5 mins)

But in contrast, given the same starting point as above, (i.e. tank sitting at 60 psi) and I open a hose bib outside to water my trees and Im using say 4 gals/min at the outside hose bib, then:

(1) the tank empties the 10.5 gals out to the hose bib and the tank pressure is now down to 40 and the pump comes on.

(2) the pump still pumps at 8.5 gals/min as in first example , but 4 gals/min are coming out of the outside hose bib, and so only the other 4.5 gals/min are going into the tank.

(3) So it takes longer than the first example to get the tank back up to 60 psi before the pump shuts off:
i.e., [1/4.5 minutes/gal ] x [10.5 gals to fill tank ] = [ 2.33 minutes to fill tank]

So on this pump on-off cycle the pump runs for 2.33 minutes and discharges 19.8 gals (i.e., 8.5 gals/min) x 2.33 min = 19.8 gals)

and of those 19.8 gals-->10.5 gals go into the tank and 9.3 gals go out the hose bib)

Sounds right to me of course! (LOL)
 
  #20  
Old 08-05-11, 10:45 PM
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Ruauu2 have you checked the air in the well tank? Low air will cause rapid cycles.

Also how big is the tank? I am assuming its small. Possibly too small. Whats the tag say?

And to check the air turn the pump off and open a fauce to relieve house pressure. Then check the tanks pressure. Should be 5 psi below cut on witch you stated was 40psi. So set for 35.

Let us know.

Mike NJ
 
  #21  
Old 08-06-11, 05:24 AM
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Ruauu2 have you checked the air in the well tank? Low air will cause rapid cycles. Also how big is the tank? I am assuming its small. Possibly too small.
That was explained in post #4 (I know, that's pretty far up the thread) - the tank is made for a vertical installation, but the knucklehead who installed in laid it horizontally because it would not fit under the MH vertically. It's a 6 gallon tank so it's supposed to have a 5.8 gallon drawdown but it's actually 1.6 gallons.

And to check the air turn the pump off and open a fauce to relieve house pressure. Then check the tanks pressure. Should be 5 psi below cut on witch you stated was 40psi. So set for 35.
Yes, you are correct - it does turn on at 35 - I used 40 for the sake of simplifying the conversation.
 
  #22  
Old 08-06-11, 06:34 AM
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Pneumatic tank capacities are normally stated in total volume, both air and water.
If you actually have a 6 gallon tank your draw-down would be pretty close to the 1.6 gal you say yours is.
In order for you to have the 5.6 gal draw-down you think you should have, your tank size would be a 20 gal tank.
For comparison a 6 gal tank would be about 10" in diameter and 16 inches high.
A 20 gal tank would be 16" in diameter and 29" high.

Which do you have?

Hopefully you understand some of this.
We are kinda going in circles a bit.
I think at this point for us to be any more help we would need some specific info, especially the specs from the tank and pump.
If you could take some clear pictures of your tank, pump and any related pieces then post them to a free site like Photo Bucket we could see what you have.
Also, do the flow test I mentioned and give us the results.

We are off the topic of your original question but hopefully you now see it will do you no good.
All we are doing is speculating which only wastes electrons and bandwidth!

OH, and start planning and measuring for the relocation of your pneumatic tank..........just make sure it doesn't happen to be a horizontal one.
 
  #23  
Old 08-06-11, 06:58 AM
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The tank is 5.8 gallon, ok. ( too small I would say)

But you still need to check the air pressure in the tank with a tire gauge.

What size pump? Make, model?

A bladder tank or any captive air type tank does not depend on gravity at all for water dis-charge. You can install it vertical, horizontal, or upside down with no affect.

Mike NJ
 
  #24  
Old 08-06-11, 07:21 AM
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Like I said, we don't have enough information to be very helpful.

The application is a mobile home and someone installed a pressure tank (under the MH) meant for a vertical installation
We haven't been told that it is a bladder tank.
There are still non bladder type tanks in use that must be installed with the outlet at the bottom of the tank
 
  #25  
Old 08-06-11, 07:16 PM
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Mobile homes are usually 24-36" off the ground, because the axles and suspension are left in place, just the wheels are removed after it is jacked up and placed on its 'foundation' (blocks, poured piers, or an engineered tiedown). So a 20 gallon tank sounds right that it is too tall to stand.. A 6 gallon tank would fit fine.
 
  #26  
Old 08-06-11, 09:17 PM
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In order for you to have the 5.6 gal draw-down you think you should have, your tank size would be a 20 gal tank.
It is a 20 gallon tank, which means it has a 5.8 gallon drawdown.

Hopefully you understand some of this.
I think I understand that what all of you are saying is true under the circumstances you cite.

...hopefully you now see it will do you no good.
But what about if I do as I suggested in post #17, which is

...conduct a one-time test of each application by taking actual measurements of the water used per pump cycle and record that info and use that record so that the counter is "calibrated" to that particular use. For example, the hydrant fully open may use 3 gallons per cycle and once I know that, I can have a pretty accurate figure of the amount of water used per cycle for that particular use.
Then won't the amount of water used for each particular use be the same per number of cycles every time as long as the flow for that particular use is at or relatively close to the test amount and no other part of the system is being used simultaneously?

A bladder tank or any captive air type tank does not depend on gravity at all for water dis-charge. You can install it vertical, horizontal, or upside down with no affect.
It apprears that is not true. When speaking to the tank manufacturer's technical support, she told me her estimate of the drawdown of my tank installed as it is would be about 1.5 gallons. It was not until after I spoke to her that I measured it and she was quite close. The manual states not to install the tank at less than a 30 degree angle off horizontal.
 
  #27  
Old 08-06-11, 09:42 PM
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Well the thing is, gpm change swith pressure. I dont know how exact you need to be. But you really need to answer some things for anyone to help. We are just running in circles.

Your not answering questions asked.

What type tank do you have? What is the make and model?
What pump make and model?

What is your exact issue? Forget about the counter for now.

If you have a low yeild well waht you want to do, and someone else stated this, is to use your set up you have now to pump to a seperate holding tank. Say 100 gallon. Then have a seperate pump feed the house water from that tank. This way the set up you have will only be responsible for filling the 100 gallon tank.

As long as you dont use more then 100 gallons at a time the pump will continually be filling the 100 gallon tank.

Like this and it can be done alot cheaper.


LOW FLOW WATER SUPPLY SOLUTION


Mike NJ
 
  #28  
Old 08-06-11, 10:20 PM
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Ok.
We are off topic about what you originally asked.

1. No one here seems to have any idea about how you can make your counter work.
You really need to contact the manufacturer on this.
2. No one here sees the benefit of measuring cycles and water delivered per cycle due to the lack of consistency in water delivery volume, however I think we all have open minds.
If you can make this work and have some accurate numbers we would certainly like to hear about it.
 
  #29  
Old 08-07-11, 09:16 AM
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I wonder if the counter isn't picking up any kickback from the motor still spinning when it is shut off. One way to get around that is to have a time delay on relay, so that the pump has to be on for at least a few seconds before the relay contacts close.
 
  #30  
Old 08-07-11, 08:34 PM
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Your not answering questions asked.

What is your exact issue? Forget about the counter for now.
I don't mean to be evasive but I chose not to answer a couple of the questions directly because they did not relate to the reason I posted here.

The issue is stated in post #1

We are off topic about what you originally asked.
Yes we are off topic. I do believe everyone that has responded truly wanted to help and I sincerely appreciate it.

But I posted my question in the Electrical and Electronics forum and not the Wells and Pumps forum because my question was about the relay and not the water system.

As I said before, I have other reasons (which I believe are valid) for wanting a counter besides measuring amount of water used.

No one here sees the benefit of measuring cycles and water delivered per cycle due to the lack of consistency in water delivery volume, however I think we all have open minds.
I stated that I believe I understood the point you all were trying to make that counting cycles would not be of benefit under the conditions used in your examples. But I believe that there is a possibility that I'm correct in my theory stated previously:

I can conduct a one-time test of each application by taking actual measurements of the water used per pump cycle and record that info and use that record so that the counter is "calibrated" to that particular use. For example, the hydrant fully open may use 3 gallons per cycle and once I know that, I can have a pretty accurate figure of the amount of water used per cycle for that particular use.

Then won't the amount of water used for each particular use be the same per number of cycles every time as long as the flow for that particular use is at or relatively close to the test conditions and no other part of the system is being used simultaneously?

If you can make this work and have some accurate numbers we would certainly like to hear about it.
The application is at my country home and I'm not sure when I'll be able to do the testing, but since everyone went to so much trouble to help, I shall definitely report back when I have real-world numbers. I hopefully can do this within 30 days.

Thanks to all for now.
 
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