Use 12-3 on new circuit to provide ground to old circuit?

Reply

  #1  
Old 05-02-12, 12:38 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1
Use 12-3 on new circuit to provide ground to old circuit?

I'm new to the is forum, and fairly new to wiring. I'm adding some counter space to my kitchen and adding a new circuit to my panel for the GFIs over this counter. There is a half "pony" wall between my kitchen and living room where these new GFI outlets are going to be installed. There is an un-grounded circuit that feeds two existing outlets on the family room side of the wall. I plan on putting a switched light fixture down stream of these two old un-grounded outlets as well.

I have some extra 12-3 wire that I could use for my new GFI circuit. Does it make sense to use the extra red wire in the 12-3 to run a ground to the old outlets? Can I use green electrical tape to label it as a ground in the panel and the box? Does it meet code? Will it pass inspection? Is this stupid? Should I just leave the old outlets alone and have an ungrounded light fixture? It would be much easier (and cheaper) to run the 12-3 I have than buying new 12-2 for the GFIs and a separate ground to run to these old outlets.

Thanks for the help!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 05-02-12, 01:16 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 32,646
I have some extra 12-3 wire that I could use for my new GFI circuit. Does it make sense to use the extra red wire in the 12-3 to run a ground to the old outlets?
Not code compliant. A factory colored wire smaller then #4 can not be re-designated as ground. It must be bare or factory colored green on #14-#6 wire.

You can run a ground wire separate from the new cable from the panel to the old receptacles. A single conductor green or bare is all you need. Or you could install a GFCI at the first old receptacle and install regular grounded receptacles in the other boxes. Receptacles would need to be marked GFCI Protected. No Equipment Ground. That provides extra life safety but not grounding and complies with code.It does not provide the ground needed by surge protectors. Best practice is to run new, grounded cable.

Since you need two 20a dedicated appliance circuits you can use the 3-conductor cable and a 2-pole breaker to run power for those circuits.
 
  #3  
Old 05-02-12, 01:42 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,357
Ungrounded circuits should not be extended by the electrical code.
 
  #4  
Old 05-02-12, 03:03 PM
SeaOn's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 351
I plan on putting a switched light fixture down stream of these two old un-grounded outlets as well.
:NO NO NO: This would be a violation if you are serving the lights from the kitchens small appliance branch circuit.

Iím with Ray, if you can fish in a new equipment grounding conductor, you may as well install a new cable(s) with ground.

But, if a grounding electrode is closer than a service enclosure, then you can use it. But it must be used per NEC 250.130C.
 
  #5  
Old 05-02-12, 03:33 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 11,981
Not code compliant. A factory colored wire smaller then #4 can not be re-designated as ground. It must be bare or factory colored green on #14-#6 wire.
Wire smaller than #4, that is part of a cable, may be re-identified.

You plan does not make sense anyway. Why would you re-identify the red as a ground when you already have a ground in the new cable?

Re-identifying a hot wire as a ground can only be done where maintenance and supervision ensure that only qualified persons service the installation, such as a commercial building. (250.119(B) 2008)
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 05-03-12 at 04:49 AM. Reason: adding info to make post clearer
  #6  
Old 05-02-12, 03:39 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Since you need two 20a dedicated appliance circuits you can use the 3-conductor cable and a 2-pole breaker to run power for those circuits.
Or two single pole breakers with a handle tie.
 
  #7  
Old 05-08-12, 12:48 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 2,851
When a separate ground wire (equipment grounding conductor) is strung to retrofit an existing ungrounded circuit with grounding, it may not be connected to the EGC of a different branch circuit to complete the path to the panel.

Rather it must go all the way to the panel, or if it first reaches the fat ground wire (grounding electrode conductor) from the panel to a ground rod or entering cold water pipe, the newly strung EGC can stop there.
 
  #8  
Old 05-08-12, 02:37 PM
SeaOn's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 351
Rather it must go all the way to the panel, or if it first reaches the fat ground wire (grounding electrode conductor) from the panel to a ground rod or entering cold water pipe, the newly strung EGC can stop there.
Is it ok for me to ask if you could explain yourself here. I believe you lost me.
Thanks!!
 
  #9  
Old 05-08-12, 03:23 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,357
If a grounding conductor is run it can terminate on the GEC that runs to a rod or a metallic water line or in the panel where the circuit originates.
 
  #10  
Old 05-08-12, 07:07 PM
SeaOn's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 351
IC. TY!! I guess the way it was written threw me a curve
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'