I screwed up. I need a little help.

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  #41  
Old 05-29-12, 07:27 PM
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Yes, he needs a ground rod at the subpanel in addition to a an EGC from the supply panel.
I know about the ground rod. How long are they and how deep should they be set?

I assume EGC is connection to the ground bar in supply panel. I got #10 green for the run to sub panel.
 
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  #42  
Old 05-29-12, 07:33 PM
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The ground rod needs 8' in contact with the soils and the top below the dirt.

EGC Equipment grounding conductor. Runs from the service panel to the subpanel. A grounding electrode conductor would run from the ground bus to the rod.
 
  #43  
Old 05-29-12, 07:39 PM
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EGC Equipment grounding conductor. Runs from the service panel to the subpanel. A grounding electrode conductor would run from the ground bus to the rod.
Gotcha boss. Are both of those run with #10 Green in my scenario, or is the electrode conductor different?
 
  #44  
Old 05-29-12, 07:42 PM
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How long are they and how deep should they be set?
In most jurisdictions, two rods, each 8' long, set at least 6' apart and driven fully into the earth.

I assume EGC is the ground bar in supply panel.
No. The EGC is the Equipment Grounding Conductor. It is the ground wire you are running from your main panel to the sub-panel. In the sub-panel, it will be installed on the separate (from the neutrals) ground bar, along with the Grounding Electrode Conductor, which is the piece of bare copper that is tied to the two ground rods.
 
  #45  
Old 05-29-12, 08:06 PM
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The conductor to the rod would not need to be larger than a #6.

The conductor size from the service panel is determined by the circuit size.
 
  #46  
Old 05-29-12, 08:14 PM
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Thanks guys. My EGC is #10 for the 30A circuit.

I will get #6 for electrode conductor. I will find out whether I need one rod or two.
 
  #47  
Old 05-30-12, 05:43 PM
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What is the proper way to connect PVC conduit to the service/sub panels? Male adapter?
 
  #48  
Old 05-30-12, 05:50 PM
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Male adapter and a locknut.
 
  #49  
Old 05-30-12, 06:02 PM
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That's what I got.

Pretty productive day. All wire run. Pretty easy actually with 3/4" PVC. Lots of nice long straight runs with simple elbows.

Tomorrow I will mount sub panel and make connections. I will post pictures when I'm done so you guys can verify the panel setup and connections.
 
  #50  
Old 05-30-12, 06:09 PM
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Sounds like you are well on the way.
 
  #51  
Old 05-31-12, 06:04 PM
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Sounds like you are well on the way.
I hope so. I haven't made any sub panel connections as of yet as I'd like some advice to make sure I'm on the right path.

The entire run above ground has been made though. Here's a few pictures of what I've done thus far. I still have to make the short run in the basement to the service panel.



Here where is comes up into attached garage:
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Exiting the attached garage:
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Trench Entry/Exit:
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Sub Panel Connection:
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Sub Panel:
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  #52  
Old 05-31-12, 06:13 PM
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Nice looking work! One question, though: Is this
a picture of a J-box inside a wall that's about to be covered with pegboard?
 
  #53  
Old 05-31-12, 06:22 PM
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a picture of a J-box inside a wall that's about to be covered with pegboard?
I used that for a tight 90 degree change of direction because the elbow wouldn't work there. That's not a junction box.
 

Last edited by DawgOnKing; 05-31-12 at 06:55 PM.
  #54  
Old 05-31-12, 07:04 PM
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a picture of a J-box inside a wall that's about to be covered with pegboard?
I used that for a tight 90 degree change of direction because the elbow wouldn't work there. That's not a junction box.
OK, it's a box with wires inside it and a removable cover. Last I heard, that has to be accessible.
 
  #55  
Old 05-31-12, 07:17 PM
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Just had a few general questions about stuff for tomorrow:

- My plan is to use 12-2 NM and plastic boxes in the detached garage. Is that ok or do I need metal boxes out there?

- Gonna run (2) 20A circuits out there for now. The first receptable on each circuit needs to be GFCI and will protect up to four receptacles on the same circuit correct?

- I was gonna put garage door opener receptacle first on one circuit. Would it be bad practice to have the GFCI outlet on the ceiling?

And lastly.......

- As you can tell in pictures, the new structure is a pole barn construction so no standard wall studs. I don't plan on embedding any of the wire. All of the boxes will be mounted to a 4x4 post. I'm assuming the correct way to run the NM is vertically up the side of each respective 4x4 and then perpendicular across the truss until reaching the next 4x4. Any issues with that plan?

Thanks again for all the continued help. I may only be another 2-3 hours of work from leaving you guys alone.
 
  #56  
Old 05-31-12, 07:20 PM
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OK, it's a box with wires inside it and a removable cover. Last I heard, that has to be accessible.
Understood. Well, unless someone tells me otherwise, I will cut pegboard accordingly to leave it exposed. No prob at all. That's why I'm posting pictures as I go. I can't thank you enough for your observations.

Luckily, that's the only one!
 
  #57  
Old 05-31-12, 07:57 PM
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I will cut pegboard accordingly to leave it exposed.
Sounds like a plan to me.

Luckily, that's the only one!
Yep, so far!
 
  #58  
Old 06-01-12, 07:12 AM
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- I was gonna put garage door opener receptacle first on one circuit. Would it be bad practice to have the GFCI outlet on the ceiling?
Gonna change this plan. After some internet research, I really don't want to trip a breaker while I'm gone and get locked out of the garage.

Can I protect the second outlet on the circuit with GFCI instead? This would still protect all outlets at ground level.

EDIT: It's prob best to just put an additional outlet adjacent to panel and protect all others from that point. I think all outlets on circuit have to be protected if I remember correctly....
 
  #59  
Old 06-01-12, 08:14 AM
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- I was gonna put garage door opener receptacle first on one circuit. Would it be bad practice to have the GFCI outlet on the ceiling?
Gonna change this plan. After some internet research, I really don't want to trip a breaker while I'm gone and get locked out of the garage.
The receptacle in the ceiling must be GFCI protected.

- My plan is to use 12-2 NM and plastic boxes in the detached garage. Is that ok or do I need metal boxes out there?

- As you can tell in pictures, the new structure is a pole barn construction so no standard wall studs. I don't plan on embedding any of the wire. All of the boxes will be mounted to a 4x4 post. I'm assuming the correct way to run the NM is vertically up the side of each respective 4x4 and then perpendicular across the truss until reaching the next 4x4. Any issues with that plan?
Type NM-B is only approved for concealed - and thus protected - installation. Because you are not enclosing the wall spaces, you will need to run everything in conduit.

More of that clean-looking PVC conduit work you've been doing will work fine.
 
  #60  
Old 06-01-12, 08:16 AM
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I really don't want to trip a breaker while I'm gone and get locked out of the garage.
The solution to that is mechanical not electrical. Best solution is a "people" door so you can enter and release the garage door from the opener. If such a door is undesirable you can in stall a keyed release cable for the garage door out side.

Garage door openers fail for more reasons then just a tripped breaker. I had to rip bars off a customer's garage window because there was no "people" door or release cable outside. A near by lightening strike had fried the GDO.
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  #61  
Old 06-01-12, 09:15 AM
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More of that clean-looking PVC conduit work you've been doing will work fine.
I can handle that. Thanks for the info.
 
  #62  
Old 06-01-12, 09:19 AM
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The solution to that is mechanical not electrical. Best solution is a "people" door so you can enter and release the garage door from the opener. If such a door is undesirable you can in stall a keyed release cable for the garage door out side.
Thanks Ray. There will eventually be a door on the back but not until I add on to the structure. For now I will install a release. Good to know.
 
  #63  
Old 06-01-12, 09:52 AM
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NM is permitted by the NEC as follows:

(A) Type NM.
Type NM cable shall be permitted as follows 1) For both exposed and concealed work in normally dry locations except as prohibited in 334.10(3)(2) To be installed or fished in air voids in masonry block or tile walls


334.15 Exposed Work
In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11(A), cable shall be installed as specified in334.15(A) through (C).

(A) To Follow Surface.
Cable shall closely follow the surfaceof the building finish or of running boards.
(B) Protection from Physical Damage.
Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means. Where passing through a floor, the cable shall be enclosed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means extending at least 150 mm (6 in.) above the floor.

The GFI protection must be readily accessible, ceiling mounted will not work.
 
  #64  
Old 06-01-12, 12:05 PM
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Thanks boss, I understand the wording in the code you have provided, it seems pretty clear.

The only portion of the NM that will be exposed are the vertical run(s) up the 4x4's and the parallel run(s) that's stapled along the truss path.

How about something like this:

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Everything else will be concealed with pegboard. My concern is that even concealed, the wire only has 1 1/2" of depth to be run along compared to 3 1/2" that is typical with a vertically run stud.

I can either run the NM horizontally along the wall 2x4's in conduit or stapled.

A few examples:

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Another option without running conduit behind pegboard:

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I may be a pain in the ass with all my questions, but you can't knock me for thoroughness!
 
  #65  
Old 06-01-12, 04:32 PM
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Everything else will be concealed with pegboard. My concern is that even concealed, the wire only has 1 1/2" of depth to be run along compared to 3 1/2" that is typical with a vertically run stud.
Are you planning to mount the pegboard to the horizontal 2X4s? If so, I would make all of the horizontal runs along the truss and make a drop to each box. No wire in that shallow depth between the pegboard and the chipboard.

I would use 3/4" EMT and metal surface-mount boxes, but that's just me. Regardless of the material, making a 90 degree bend toward the truss would get you a smooth-looking and well-protected installation, and 3/4" pipe will let you get down and back up.
 
  #66  
Old 06-01-12, 05:32 PM
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No wire in that shallow depth between the pegboard and the chipboard.
Yeah Nash, I was just out there looking at things once again. The pegboard is 75% installed and I don't want to take it all down. The shallow depth that I would have to work with will just complicate things in the end. It's not the cleanest or safest option.

So, it will all be surface run. I've never used EMT though and am a little more comfortable running PVC and then connecting to metal boxes with male adapter as I did in panel. It has a nice, clean finished look with the pegboard.
 
  #67  
Old 06-01-12, 05:47 PM
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You may use PVC surface-mount boxes and glue everything. That's what I did in my previous garage. If you need to make a slight bend or offset in PVC conduit you may use a heat gun to carefully soften the PVC conduit and "adjust" it to fit.
 
  #68  
Old 06-01-12, 05:58 PM
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You may use PVC surface-mount boxes and glue everything.
Yeah, that's an option as this point. The only problem is that I can no longer utilize each 4x4 post to vertically run up/down with surface-mount boxes. Maybe an offset connector would do the trick. I will look into it for sure. The posts just help to hide the PVC quite a bit.

Either way, if I protect all vertical runs from the box up to the 2x10 header, do I need to continue running in conduit once I'm up there? Can't I safely staple NM to the backside of the 2x10 for horizontal runs? See picture #1 in post 64 below.

It would be concealed, hidden, and in a safe location.
 
  #69  
Old 06-01-12, 06:13 PM
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Can't I safely staple NM to the backside of the 2x10 for horizontal runs?
The code says it has to be protected from damage and that is often a judgement call by the inspector. He/she may allow type NM cable above a certain height without physical protection. For me, the ease of using individual conductors inside conduit would be a big plus in favor of using conduit all the way.
 
  #70  
Old 06-01-12, 06:24 PM
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For me, the ease of using individual conductors inside conduit would be a big plus in favor of using conduit all the way.
You mean individual conductors in conduit over messing with NM?
 
  #71  
Old 06-01-12, 07:04 PM
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Individual conductors are easier to work with in conduit than pulling a cable.
 
  #72  
Old 06-01-12, 07:26 PM
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I've never used EMT though and am a little more comfortable running PVC and then connecting to metal boxes with male adapter as I did in panel. It has a nice, clean finished look with the pegboard.
I hear you, and I kinda felt you'd lean that way. The only thing is, it's sooo easy to bend a box offset in EMT and it's a PITA to heat and shape one in PVC.

Here's what I was thinking, though - what if you mounted the boxes on the face of the "poles," rather than on the side. That way, you could use stand-off straps to secure the pipe, and run it straight into the male adapter. I'm thinking that would result in a very clean and finished look, plus it would keep the boxes totally out of the way of the pegboard. If you can live with having the boxes that far out into the room.
 
  #73  
Old 06-01-12, 07:29 PM
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if I protect all vertical runs from the box up to the 2x10 header, do I need to continue running in conduit once I'm up there? Can't I safely staple NM to the backside of the 2x10 for horizontal runs?
Yes. No need to build a complete conduit system.
 
  #74  
Old 06-01-12, 09:19 PM
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Here's what I was thinking, though.....
Obviously this has become a little more than a weekend project for me. That's how it started, and partly to blame for initial oversight. At this point, I'm rather enjoying what I learn each day. Hopefully it will serve me well in the future.

I will pick up some EMT tomorrow to play around with. It's worth the time and money to try. I grabbed a few books this week as well and will dive into those as well. Tomorrow is my last vacation day and then back to work so I won't actually wire the structure until next week at some point. In the meantime, I will continue to map out my options.

Yes. No need to build a complete conduit system.
I have yet to walk into a garage that doesn't have NM stapled across truss and headers (in my area). The attached garage in my home is all run/stapled in such a way. Whether it's right or wrong is not for me to say. As Furd mentioned, that's for the inspector to decide(which my town does not currently have, oddly enough). If I decide to run NM instead of individual conductors, I will staple it as described. As I mentioned, it's concealed and safe in between two large headers. It couldn't be any more protected from damage. As for vertical runs up the posts and horizontal runs along the truss, I will use conduit to maintain a nice clean looking install.
 
  #75  
Old 06-02-12, 05:17 AM
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I don't see an issue with the NM stapled on the back of the 2x10 shown.
 
  #76  
Old 06-03-12, 11:51 AM
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While I'm on the road away from home I was wondering about a few things that will help me finish things up when I return.

Can someone have a look at the new sub panel (attach 850 below) and help verify conductor connections? Obviously both hots go on the main lugs. I assume the third lug and associated bar is for neutral connections. Is that correct? Do I need to get a dedicated ground bar? Grounding electrode connection? I'm a little confused with the new panel. First time for me.


Will I need to ground metal boxes? Never installed those either.


Thanks.
 
  #77  
Old 06-03-12, 12:00 PM
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I don't see the pic.

The metal boxes will need to be grounded to the EGCs.

Typically you need to buy the add on grounding bus. The conductor for the rod goes here also.
 
  #78  
Old 06-03-12, 12:28 PM
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I don't see the pic.
It's last photo in post #51 below. I figured I would need grounding bus.
Attachment 850
 

Last edited by ray2047; 06-03-12 at 01:10 PM. Reason: Add Image
  #79  
Old 06-03-12, 01:13 PM
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Yes, you will need to add a ground bar. The tapped holes for it or just above where your conduit enters. Be sure the neutral is not bonded to the case.

Suggestion: if you can lower the box so the conduit comes in above the "guts" it will be easier to wire.
 
  #80  
Old 06-03-12, 02:02 PM
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I like Ray's suggestion of relocating the box so the conduit enters above the guts. I also don't see how that would work, with the cover mounted the way it is, but you can see it better than we can. And you will need to seal the hole you already made, with a KO blank, if you do that.

Regardless, when you install the ground bar, bonded to the box, you will connect both the Grounding Electrode Conductor from the new ground rod(s) outside and the Equipment Grounding Conductor (the green wire) that you pulled from your panel to it.

Will I need to ground metal boxes? Never installed those either.
Yes. Metal boxes are grounded by looping the entering ground wire around an approved ground screw screwed into the box. An approved ground screw will be a green hex-head 10-32 X 1/2" machine screw. You should be able to pick up a 10-pack for pocket change wherever you're buying your other materials.

Tech tip: Look for the metal boxes that have a raised bump in the back with a tapped hole in it. That will keep you from having to drill a hole behind the box just for the end of the ground screw to sit in.
 
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