I screwed up. I need a little help.

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  #81  
Old 06-03-12, 03:27 PM
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The grounding wire could go up above the new bus and then make a U-turn and come back down to the bus. Are there holes on both the left and right side above the mounting holes?
 
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  #82  
Old 06-03-12, 10:24 PM
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Thumbs down

Wow. Good stuff as always guys. The only opening above the guts is a large centered opening for connecting directly to service panel.

There is another opening opposite the one where conductors entered. Also two on the bottom of the box.

I planned to move the box to utilize the left opening for two 12/2 circuits. I could then run grounding electrode directly out bottom. That may change once I get the ground bar installed.

How do I verify neutral isn't bonded?
 
  #83  
Old 06-04-12, 05:51 AM
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The only opening above the guts is a large centered opening for connecting directly to service panel.
You can drill one with a good hole saw but my suggestion was just that a suggestion.

How do I verify neutral isn't bonded?
If there is no strap or bonding screw it isn't bonded. Instructions that came with the panel should tell you that. You can also check for continuity between the neutral bar and the metal case using a multimeter set to ohms scale. No continuity it isn't bonded.
 
  #84  
Old 06-04-12, 09:18 AM
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Sounds good Ray. I will be home on Wed and can use the info here to get stuff done. I will prob have to move panel. Thanks!
 
  #85  
Old 06-06-12, 10:04 PM
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I got the first circuit run.

Ended up using surface mounted PVC boxes instead of metal. I think it turned out quite nicely. Thanks for suggestions. Was able to easily get two 12/2 NM run through 3/4" conduit.

After working with individual conductors, what a headache using NM. Not like I had much to do, but I can see why you guys recommend running this stuff in such a way.

I did have to move the panel so I could utilize the left side as well. Most of the time today spent shuffling pegboard so I could mount boxes. PITA.

Home Depot was out of 20A black receptacles, so I still have to wire everything in the boxes. I did get the GFCI ones though.

They also lacked a Siemens grounding bus. Can I use a Homeline/Other or is that a bad idea? Worst case, I can order one online. They just all seem to look identical to one another.

I have confirmed that the neutral bus in panel is not bonded as well. There's a strap in the box with a screw for that purpose, so thanks for the heads up on that as well.

I think all work in garage will be done tomorrow (if I can get receptacles elsewhere). I will put up a few pictures for inspection.

I will have to finish things off by making short run in the basement to service panel and installation of grounding rod/conductor.

I'm sure to have a few more questions as I put the finishing touches on a few things. Just wanted to update and say thanks again!
 
  #86  
Old 06-06-12, 10:13 PM
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Sounds good. We look forward to "inspecting" your work, at both rough-in and final!
 
  #87  
Old 06-07-12, 08:34 PM
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I don't see where there would be a problem with another brand of ground bus in the panel. Just be sure to follow the mounting instructions.
 
  #88  
Old 06-11-12, 06:56 AM
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I don't see where there would be a problem with another brand of ground bus in the panel. Just be sure to follow the mounting instructions.
Ok. Thanks. I will go get a Homeline bus and give it a try.

It's the last piece of the puzzle. That and the grounding rod.
 
  #89  
Old 06-11-12, 05:01 PM
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Well, was a no-go on Homeline bus as it wouldn't fit. The panel states the model numbers of approved bars so I ordered one today. $4 bus, $10 shipping - sounds about right.

Anyway, here are a few pictures of final circuits in garage. I wanted to use the 250' of 14-2 UF I'd purchased so I ran that to garage door opener and 3 additional receptacles mounted on truss that I will use for shop lights. GDO recep is hot, then rest are on a switch.

Other circuit only has 3 receptacles for now. Ran 12-2 NM for those.

All outlets GFCI protected. Let me know if something looks incorrect. Thanks!

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  #90  
Old 06-11-12, 05:42 PM
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Looks good to me. I might have used offset nipples at the receptacle and switch boxes so the conduit was flat against the wall but your way is fine. Thanks for posting pictures of your project.

Well, was a no-go on Homeline bus as it wouldn't fit
When I put a new GE panel in my house the GE ground bar I bought was too long so I just cut it off and drilled a new mounting hole.
 
  #91  
Old 06-11-12, 06:35 PM
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It looks pretty good, but in the 3rd and 4th pictures down I would add some straps to the conduit.
 
  #92  
Old 06-11-12, 07:00 PM
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It looks pretty good, but in the 3rd and 4th pictures down I would add some straps to the conduit.
Joe, these pictures were actually taken yesterday. I got an extra 10 straps today and the entire circuit has been reinforced. Really! Thanks for the sharp eye though.

I might have used offset nipples at the receptacle and switch boxes so the conduit was flat against the wall but your way is fine.
Thanks Ray. I actually tried offset connectors only to find that they don't offset nearly enough. Maybe 1/8" when I needed 3/4" for a flush vertical mount. I'm sure it could have been a little more efficient. Rookie stuff.

When I put a new GE panel in my house the GE ground bar I bought was too long so I just cut it off and drilled a new mounting hole.
That's exactly the type of thing I thought guys like you would catch and chastise me for. I'm sure if you guys would have witnessed the work you would have done 75% of it differently.

I just hope the power comes on!

Thanks again.
 
  #93  
Old 06-11-12, 07:10 PM
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All outlets GFCI protected. Let me know if something looks incorrect.
Actually, it's looking really good. Nice and clean.

I ran that to garage door opener and 3 additional receptacles mounted on truss that I will use for shop lights. GDO recep is hot, then rest are on a switch.
I'm assuming you mean the rest of the outlets in the ceiling. Not the ones on the walls.
 
  #94  
Old 06-11-12, 07:33 PM
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That's exactly the type of thing I thought guys like you would catch and chastise me for.
But I'm not a pro so I can plead ignorance.
 
  #95  
Old 06-11-12, 07:41 PM
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Nice work.
 
  #96  
Old 06-11-12, 07:56 PM
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I'm assuming you mean the rest of the outlets in the ceiling. Not the ones on the walls.
Indeed. Just the ones up top!
 
  #97  
Old 06-11-12, 08:07 PM
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I took some time to clean up service panel as well. I moved all neutral wires to left bus and the GEC/ground wires to the right bus.

As of now, nothing has changed because the two are still bonded. I'm assuming that if I remove the bonding screw (green centered between the busses/in the glare) - I will have adequate isolation.

What do ya think?

Of course there's a bad picture to go along with my description:

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  #98  
Old 06-11-12, 09:28 PM
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If that is your SERVICE panel (connected directly to the utility meter without any intervening fuses, switches or circuit breakers) then you want the equipment grounds to be bonded to the neutral.
 
  #99  
Old 06-11-12, 09:58 PM
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Square D uses add on ground bars that mount on raised bumps on the panel back. Removing the bond screw would only mean that the enclosure was not properly bonded. Leave the bond screw installed.
 
  #100  
Old 06-12-12, 06:39 AM
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If that is your SERVICE panel (connected directly to the utility meter without any intervening fuses, switches or circuit breakers) then you want the equipment grounds to be bonded to the neutral.
Furd, I've been referring to that as the service panel because it feeds the panel I just put in the garage. It's not the main service panel. It's fed by a 100A breaker in the adjacent MAIN SERVICE PANEL.


Square D uses add on ground bars that mount on raised bumps on the panel back. Removing the bond screw would only mean that the enclosure was not properly bonded. Leave the bond screw installed.
Ok. I can get one today at Big Orange. It's a quick fix as I found out yesterday.

EDIT: As far as I can tell, there is no dedicated grounding electrode conductor on this adjacent panel. What I thought to be initially is clearly just the ground from my geo-thermal furnace after further inspection. What do you guys make of that? The panel was labeled as a "split-system" on the cover by someone. Is a GEC required in this setup?
 

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  #101  
Old 06-12-12, 07:41 AM
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If two panels are in the same building only the panel with the first OCPD needs a ground rod connection.
 
  #102  
Old 06-12-12, 07:57 AM
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Furd, I've been referring to that as the service panel because it feeds the panel I just put in the garage. It's not the main service panel. It's fed by a 100A breaker in the adjacent MAIN SERVICE PANEL.


In this case the neutral need to be isolated from the grounds and the bond screw removed. Bonding can only occur in the first means of disconnect.
 
  #103  
Old 06-12-12, 10:09 AM
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The word SERVICE has a very specific definition in the electrical codes. It means the wiring and from the point where the utility's ends and the first disconnect before the customer's branch circuits. A SERVICE panel will have the wires from the electric meter to the main circuit breaker. If there is a disconnect (fused switch or circuit breaker) between the meter and the circuit breaker panel then this disconnect is the service.

Follow PC's advice and isolate the neutral in the panel you used to feed the garage panel.
 
  #104  
Old 06-12-12, 05:23 PM
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Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for clarification Furd. I'd referred to the panel incorrectly in the past and it slipped through the cracks because it was not the subject of discussion.

I am indeed cleaning up a sub panel. It just happens to be the panel that feeds another sub panel.

I will remove the bonding screw and the panel is done, unless you see something else in the photo that needs addressed. I've isolated all the neutrals from grounds and should be good to go.

ps I also need to replace the Westinghouse breaker with a Homeline. I'm aware of that as well. It's been turned off in the meantime.
 
  #105  
Old 06-12-12, 05:57 PM
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After removing the bond screw you will still need to move the grounding wires to the add-in ground bus. Is there a grounding conductor in the feeder for that panel? If not there are other issues.
 
  #106  
Old 06-12-12, 09:07 PM
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Is there a grounding conductor in the feeder for that panel? If not there are other issues.
Not that I'm aware of. I will check again in the morning but I don't recall seeing one. I got the new ground bus today and will move all the wires tomorrow.
 
  #107  
Old 06-13-12, 06:14 AM
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If you do not have the 4th conductor you may need to have the feeder changed for one that does. If you have conduit there is a possibility that this can be fixed correctly.
 
  #108  
Old 06-13-12, 11:42 AM
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If you do not have the 4th conductor you may need to have the feeder changed for one that does. If you have conduit there is a possibility that this can be fixed correctly.
Sorry for delayed response. I just looked and they did not run a grounding conductor in the feeder. The good news is that the two panels are literally side by side, essentially connected to one another. I assume I can go get the correct size conductor (100A) and run it myself.
 
  #109  
Old 06-13-12, 11:46 AM
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Here a picture of the setup in the basement. You can see the 3 feeders entering the panel in the upper left. No ground present..........

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1143[/ATTACH]
 
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  #110  
Old 06-13-12, 12:10 PM
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The metallic nipple between the two panels acts as the 4th conductor. You can just add the new ground bar and move the grounding conductors to it. You also need to remove the bond screw.
 
  #111  
Old 06-13-12, 12:12 PM
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DISREGARD............. Already addressed.
 
  #112  
Old 06-13-12, 12:15 PM
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The metallic nipple between the two panels acts as the 4th conductor. You can just add the new ground bar and move the grounding conductors to it. You also need to remove the bond screw.
Wow, that's good news pc.

I'm headed to grab a few feet of bare #12 for splicing the last 3 grounds to new bus. I will remove bonding screw and I'm finished.
 
  #113  
Old 06-13-12, 12:58 PM
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@PC,
are there anymore bonding requirements for that nipple?
 
  #114  
Old 06-13-12, 02:28 PM
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Those are not service conductors so a locknut inside and outside the panel is fine. No need for a bond lug.
 
  #115  
Old 06-13-12, 05:36 PM
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You can see the 3 feeders entering the panel in the upper left.
I can't see the end of the nipple clearly enough in your picture to tell whether you have a plastic bushing on it. One should be on each end of the nipple.
 
  #116  
Old 06-13-12, 06:10 PM
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Those are not service conductors so a locknut inside and outside the panel is fine. No need for a bond lug.
Providing they are not through concentric knockouts. Addition of an equipment grounding conductor would be easy and while perhaps not an absolute code requirement, in my opinion should be done.
 
  #117  
Old 06-14-12, 06:53 PM
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Picture of each panel as of know:

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  #118  
Old 06-14-12, 06:57 PM
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Providing they are not through concentric knockouts. Addition of an equipment grounding conductor would be easy and while perhaps not an absolute code requirement, in my opinion should be done.
Can I clamp one end of the conductor on the service panel ground rod wire (before or after it enters panel) and then run it to the new ground bus in adjacent panel?

The ground bus in the service panel is completely full as far as I can tell.
 
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