Replacing a breaker with GCFI breaker
#1
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Replacing a breaker with GCFI breaker
I will be installing a hot tub shower unit that uses 2x 110V outlets. One is the 20 AMP, the other is 30 AMP (steam generator). We have a dedicated 20 amp outlet already for a wall air conditioner, that has it's own breaker in the panel. I decided to replace the breaker with a GCFI breaker myself. My question is: are all breakers interchangeable between the brands? Or simply put, which GFI breaker should I buy? If this helps, I took a picture that's on the door of my panel.
I am not sure if I will be doing the 110V, 30 AMP to hook up the steam generator, but I would like additional opinion whether such thing is possible and most of all, safe. There is electric base heater in the room that we no longer use that takes 220V 2x20 AMP and I might have a professional to make an outlet and put it a 30 amp gcfi breaker.
I am not sure if I will be doing the 110V, 30 AMP to hook up the steam generator, but I would like additional opinion whether such thing is possible and most of all, safe. There is electric base heater in the room that we no longer use that takes 220V 2x20 AMP and I might have a professional to make an outlet and put it a 30 amp gcfi breaker.
#2
First off residential voltages haven't been 110v in many decades. Nominal voltage is 120v. That and the question:
Tells me you need to buy a book like Wiring Simplified available at home stores, Amazon, and other places before doing any electrical. You need to learn the basics first.
To answer your question all breaker are panel specific. Even within brands there may be specific requirements for a particular model.
A 20 amp circuit would most likely have #12 wire. You need #10 at a minimum.
are all breakers interchangeable between the brands?
To answer your question all breaker are panel specific. Even within brands there may be specific requirements for a particular model.
electric base heater in the room that we no longer use that takes 220V 2x20 AMP and I might have a professional to make an outlet and put it a 30 amp gcfi breaker.
Last edited by ray2047; 06-04-12 at 01:34 PM.
#3
Ray has given you some good information on both the undersized wiring and the needs for the breakers to be on the specified list on the panel label.
#4
Your panel was made by Challenger. To the extent that company still exists, it is owned by (Westinghouse)/Cutler-Hammer/Eaton. I would check with the largest supplier of Cutler-Hammer products in the area. Taking along a clear picture of the label might help. A clear picture of the portion of the label that lists the compatible breakers might help even more, both here and at the supply house.
#5
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I've zoomed in and here's what the sticker reads:
USE CHALLENGER CIRCUIT BREAKERS TYPE A, C, HAGF, GFCB AND SUBFEED LUG KIT TL12-12, MLK2150, WLK2200C, USE WESTINGHOUSE CIRCUIT BREAKERS TYPE BRSN AND BRWH.
Would this breaker fit my panel?
WESTINGHOUSE GFCB120 20 AMP 1-POLE GFI PLUG IN BREAKER | eBay
USE CHALLENGER CIRCUIT BREAKERS TYPE A, C, HAGF, GFCB AND SUBFEED LUG KIT TL12-12, MLK2150, WLK2200C, USE WESTINGHOUSE CIRCUIT BREAKERS TYPE BRSN AND BRWH.
Would this breaker fit my panel?
WESTINGHOUSE GFCB120 20 AMP 1-POLE GFI PLUG IN BREAKER | eBay
#6
Typing in what you saw in the breaker information portion of the panel label is not the same as posting a picture of that portion. The most effective way for us to help you is for us to be able to see what you're seeing.
That said, the answer to your question,
is that I don't know, but I'd guess not. The only breakers known to work in your panel - which involves more than just fitting into the slot - are those specifically listed on the label. The one you pointed to not only isn't listed, none of its four designation letter-codes matches those given on the label for Westinghouse breakers.
As Ray said earlier,
As I said earlier,
That said, the answer to your question,
Would this breaker fit my panel?
As Ray said earlier,
all breakers are panel specific. Even within brands there may be specific requirements for a particular model of panel].
I would check with the largest supplier of Cutler-Hammer products in the area.
Last edited by ray2047; 06-04-12 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Correct my typo in quote.
#7
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Thread Starter
Another picture that could be zoomed in.
this appears to be a better fit:
Cutler-Hammer Circuit Breaker GFCB120 # 786679371206
this appears to be a better fit:
Cutler-Hammer Circuit Breaker GFCB120 # 786679371206
#8
My question is: are all breakers interchangeable between the brands? Or simply put, which GFI breaker should I buy?
#9
Member
Looks like UL says to use Cutler Hammer:
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...=1060734795587
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcS...=1060734795587
#10
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Thread Starter
I received the hot tub and noticed that the 20 amp plug already has a GFI protection, like a plug on a hair dryer. Would adding a GCFI circuit breaker cause any problems, like interference or causing it to reset unnecessarily? Thanks.
#12
Actually the plug is an RCD. Similar function to a GFCI bur works a bit different so I don't think they will interfere with each other but that is a guess. The RCD device detects current leakage to a metal shield embedded in the AC cord. It is to prevent an AC with a damaged cord from working. The GFCI measures the difference in voltage between the two sides of the line to detect a general current leakage not specifically a damaged cord.
#13
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Thread Starter
I'm wondering if $450 is a decent price to replace a 20 amp circuit breaker to a GCFI and running a #10 wire for a new outlet, with 30 amp GCFI breaker. Run is about 30 feet from the panel to the outlet most of which is in a crawl space.
#15
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Thread Starter
yes. wouldn't I want it myself, just in case?
I think I finally figured out that my panel will take GFCB model# breakers, either cutler-hammer or westinghouse, however, the only single pole cutler hammer I could find is QBGF1030 for the 30 amp. I double our local hardware stores would have a greater selection than available online.
I think I finally figured out that my panel will take GFCB model# breakers, either cutler-hammer or westinghouse, however, the only single pole cutler hammer I could find is QBGF1030 for the 30 amp. I double our local hardware stores would have a greater selection than available online.
Last edited by xxhaimbondxx; 06-08-12 at 06:56 PM.
#16
It might be cheaper to install a subpanel for both circuits that use much cheaper GFCI breakers. About cheapest would be a GE subpanel though some here don't like the aluminum buses. 30amp GFCI $50-60, 20amp GFCI ~$15, GE breaker box 60a $30-50. Since both breakers will be 120 volt a 30amp 240v feed from your existing panel using 10-3 should be adequate.
#17
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I like that idea. however, I found a 20amp breaker for less than $30. All I need is to find the right 30A breaker that will work with my panel and I probably could wire the outlet myself.
#18
Just buy or order the proper single pole 30 amp GFI breaker, it's much cheaper and a lot easier than a subpanel.
Frost - C-H GFCB130 1P 30A 120/240V GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT BREAKER EATON CUTLER HAMMER
Frost - C-H GFCB130 1P 30A 120/240V GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT BREAKER EATON CUTLER HAMMER
#19
O/P wrote:
The $450 figure is the only reason I suggested the subpanel. On re-reading perhaps he was referring to a quote with labor from an electrician.
I'm wondering if $450 is a decent price to replace a 20 amp circuit breaker to a GCFI and running a #10 wire for a new outlet, with 30 amp GCFI breaker.
#20
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Yes Ray, $450 is the quote for the total job I received, however, I have doubts about that company. The estimator that came by didn't know if a 30a single pole breakers exist. He had to call his supplier and eventually, had me googling for it. He also changed his mind a couple of times on whether GFI breaker would interfere with a GFI type plug I have on the cord already and said that the outlet would definitely interfere, but the breaker would not. I will be seeing someone else on Monday.
Joe, I couldn't find that breaker before. If it 100% fits my panel, then I'm all set to go. Thanks!
Also, could I use surface outlets, like the ones used for dryers or electric stoves?
Joe, I couldn't find that breaker before. If it 100% fits my panel, then I'm all set to go. Thanks!
Also, could I use surface outlets, like the ones used for dryers or electric stoves?
Last edited by xxhaimbondxx; 06-10-12 at 02:38 PM.
#21
Joe, I couldn't find that breaker before. If it 100% fits my panel, then I'm all set to go. Thanks!
https://images.tradeservice.com/FRKH...00068_3_67.pdf
#23
No. The receptacle must be for the rated voltage and amperage. You must have a 5-30R. Amazon.com: Eagle Electric Surface Mount Receptacle Outlet 5-30 30A 125V 1231: Home Improvement
Last edited by ray2047; 06-10-12 at 08:07 PM.
#24
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Then it would be something like this: Eagle Electric Surface Mount Receptacle Outlet 5-30 30A 125V 1231
But placing it outside the wall is generally acceptable, since this is how our dryer and stove are set up?
But placing it outside the wall is generally acceptable, since this is how our dryer and stove are set up?
#25
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Getting conflicting info from different electricians. One guy says it's okay to use the surface plug and bring the wire along the wall from the crawl space. The other says that he would hardwire the 30A cord instead of an outlet, and cut away the GFI protected plug on the 20A cord and possibly hardwire that one also. Both of them are very reputable companies in our town.
Is it ok to hardwire the 30A cord using wire nuts inside a surface box? This would save me probably $50 on the outlet and the plug, which I have trouble finding as well.
Is it ok to hardwire the 30A cord using wire nuts inside a surface box? This would save me probably $50 on the outlet and the plug, which I have trouble finding as well.
#26
The other says that he would hardwire the 30A cord instead of an outlet, and cut away the GFI protected plug on the 20A cord
Nothing wrong with surface mount but in general cable can not be run unprotected where it might be subjected to damage.
#27
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I've decided to wire it myself. The last quote I received was almost $1000.
This is the plug I've ordered. It looks like it could be turned any of the 4 ways to accommodate the wiring and fit the 5-30R receptacle.
Amazon.com: Leviton 9530-P 30 Amp, 125 Volt, Straight Blade, Plug, Industrial Grade, Grounding, Angle, Black: Home Improvement
Also, ordered 10/2 UF wire since it will be running in the crawl space. Hopefully it's not overkill.
This is the plug I've ordered. It looks like it could be turned any of the 4 ways to accommodate the wiring and fit the 5-30R receptacle.
Amazon.com: Leviton 9530-P 30 Amp, 125 Volt, Straight Blade, Plug, Industrial Grade, Grounding, Angle, Black: Home Improvement
Also, ordered 10/2 UF wire since it will be running in the crawl space. Hopefully it's not overkill.
#28
Yes, that looks fine if the device comes with a cord. If not I would have suggested a cord set.
10-2 UF is fine to the receptacle. If the device does not come with a cord then you will need 3-10 SO or SOJ cable between the device and the plug.
10-2 UF is fine to the receptacle. If the device does not come with a cord then you will need 3-10 SO or SOJ cable between the device and the plug.
#29
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The 30A steam generator comes with a pretty thick cord, but without the plug, just the bare forks for each wire.
#31
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This is finally coming together and I already got all the parts and run the wire to the bedroom. The only thing remaining is to replace and install the gfci breakers, which is what I'm planning to do tomorrow morning.
However, I think I screwed up big time. While prepping the end of the wire and removing the wire jacket, I accidentally made a small incision to the neutral wire. It did cut to the copper. Is there anyway to repair this, other than rewiring the whole circuit? I was planning to use electrical tape or even perhaps sliding a small piece over it of the wire jacket. Help!
However, I think I screwed up big time. While prepping the end of the wire and removing the wire jacket, I accidentally made a small incision to the neutral wire. It did cut to the copper. Is there anyway to repair this, other than rewiring the whole circuit? I was planning to use electrical tape or even perhaps sliding a small piece over it of the wire jacket. Help!
#32
If possible cut the wire just behind the nick and wire nut or Polaris on a new length of white wireIf not possible use white electrical tape if you can find some or white heat shrink tubing if you can find some. Last resort use black.
#33
I would skin the outer sheath another half inch and slide a white heat shrink over the conductor. There is also liquid electrical tape that can be brushed on.
#34
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Also, once I took of the panel, I noticed that ground and neutral wires are attached to both buses. Most screws have two wires attached to them. Supposedly this was a updated panel a few years ago. Any problems with that arrangement? I have tested the breakers and they reset all the times.
#35
I noticed that ground and neutral wires are attached to both buses. Most screws have two wires attached to them. Supposedly this was a updated panel a few years ago.
#36
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I rearranged a few grounds to free up a neutral for my outlet, however, there are still plenty of neutrals pairs remaining under one screw. Some are neutral with ground pairs under one screw.
Based on my research, this is not allowed, however, the only explanation I could find is that neutral could get loose and disconnect. Can anyone explain the safety issue if I leave it the way they were installed? Also, apparently you can wirenut neutrals, but still have to have one per screw.
Based on my research, this is not allowed, however, the only explanation I could find is that neutral could get loose and disconnect. Can anyone explain the safety issue if I leave it the way they were installed? Also, apparently you can wirenut neutrals, but still have to have one per screw.
#37
Putting the neutral and ground wire from the same circuit under the same screw was common at one time, but today not technically correct. Personally, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if they are all tight. If this was a new installation, by all means, I would say do it right.
#38
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Thanks Joe, you certainly been my right hand man on this install and possibly saved me a few hundred dollars along with everyone else on this forum. I really appreciate it.
I wonder if I would be able to do all the plumbing myself if I relied just on professional advice and did the work myself.
I wonder if I would be able to do all the plumbing myself if I relied just on professional advice and did the work myself.
#40
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The hot tub is in place and the plumbers are piping the unit. I noticed that one of the motors have a single green wire coming off it. No mention of it in the manual. I could only assume it's ground, however, where would I attach it to? Both the power cords already have ground. What your intuition suggests?