OhioSteve: Spa wiring
#1
06-16-12, 04:58 PM
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OhioSteve: Spa wiring
Got a jacuzzi that I need some help in figuring out the wiring.
It uses a 3 wire system, 2 hot and ground. Manual says it will pull
around 40 amps.
1. Can I use #4 aluminum wire with that, and what is the
downside to aluminum vs copper? This wire will be ran in the basement (open air).
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
So I'm covered at the jacuzzi end, but what do you do at the breaker panel?
2. Can a regular 50 amp breaker be used there?
3. Are GFCI's effective without a neutral, as this only has the ground wire? If so
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral? Seems the pigtail
wire won't be effective without some sort of ground connection.
Thanks
(If this is more of an "electrical topic," please feel free to move it).
It uses a 3 wire system, 2 hot and ground. Manual says it will pull
around 40 amps.
1. Can I use #4 aluminum wire with that, and what is the
downside to aluminum vs copper? This wire will be ran in the basement (open air).
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
So I'm covered at the jacuzzi end, but what do you do at the breaker panel?
2. Can a regular 50 amp breaker be used there?
3. Are GFCI's effective without a neutral, as this only has the ground wire? If so
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral? Seems the pigtail
wire won't be effective without some sort of ground connection.
Thanks
(If this is more of an "electrical topic," please feel free to move it).
#2
06-16-12, 06:21 PM
This wire will be ran in the basement (open air).
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
Can a regular 50 amp breaker be used there?
Are GFCI's effective without a neutral, as this only has the ground wire? If so
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral?
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral?
#3
06-16-12, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047
Please explain more fully. Individual wires must be in conduit. Cable must be protected where exposed.
Says on the cable "USE, RHA, or RHW, 60 mills". Should be good for 40 amps, yes?
#6
06-17-12, 06:30 AM
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Well darnit. If I could have used that, is would have saved me about $300 in new copper wire. I could see not wanting to use wire made for above ground in an underground application (water, faster breakdown), but why not the other way around?
#7
06-17-12, 06:48 AM
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If you wanted to use that wire, it would be required to be installed in conduit (EMT, PVC, FMC) the entire way. It is not allowed to be installed "free air". Cable used inside is required to have an outside sheath. (IE: romex) And with that size wire you would be looking at running 1 1/4" EMT or 1 1/2" PVC.
BTW - that wire is #2. Quite a bit overkill.
BTW - that wire is #2. Quite a bit overkill.
#8
06-17-12, 06:58 AM
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Is that for possible heat/fire problems. Would almost seem to me, that confining wire inside conduit, would make the heat problem worse? But at least you gave me an option as to how I can use that wire. Even tho its probably a 70' run, it will still be cheaper to conduit it, than to buy new wire.
#9
06-17-12, 07:11 AM
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It is more for the toxic smoke that the wire gives off when it burns. As far as the heat inside the pipe, that wire and pipe is sized to handle any heat created by the current in the wire.
#10
06-17-12, 08:36 AM
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BTW - that wire is #2. Quite a bit overkill
The spa orginally called for #6 copper, and #2 aluminum I believe is good for 90 amps.? So yes, your right, it is a bit over kill (by about double,) but should get me by.
#12
06-17-12, 11:16 AM
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It may not fit the breakers.
So how does one work around that issue if that turns out to be my case?
#14
06-17-12, 12:02 PM
You have to pigtail to smaller wires. You will probably have room in the main breaker panel. The spa breaker box may be crowded. You may have to add a junction box. Because this is aluminum the pigtails will have to be made with expensive special connectors such as Polaris connectors. The connectors may cost almost as much as using the correct size wire.
Example: Polaris Wire Connectors Shipped Fast
Example: Polaris Wire Connectors Shipped Fast
#16
06-18-12, 02:34 AM
Member
Your ground MUST be copper. It can be uninsulated if it's in the house but must be insulated outside the house, a #10 would be ok.
You can always use something flexible like "greenfield" on the interior wiring.
As far as the breaker in the panel, I would use a 60 amp breaker(same price as a 50), as the lugs should be good for #2, then feed your GFI panel and come off the load side to your jacuzzi.
Most jacuzzi/hot tub manufacturers specify "use only copper conductors so, from the load side of the disconnect with #8 THHN/THWN and #10 ground.
You can always use something flexible like "greenfield" on the interior wiring.
As far as the breaker in the panel, I would use a 60 amp breaker(same price as a 50), as the lugs should be good for #2, then feed your GFI panel and come off the load side to your jacuzzi.
Most jacuzzi/hot tub manufacturers specify "use only copper conductors so, from the load side of the disconnect with #8 THHN/THWN and #10 ground.
#17
06-18-12, 04:08 AM
But won't I lose my amp rating at the point of splice if I step it up a wire gauge or 2? (#2 to #6)
Edit: Never mind. You said use copper. My fault.
#19
06-18-12, 10:30 AM
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Wirenut1110, he has USE #2 AL he wants to use.
Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ne...#ixzz1yAPuTrud
Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ne...#ixzz1yAPuTrud
#20
06-18-12, 02:16 PM
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Actually I didn't specify a wire type but special connectors are always needed for Al to Al or Al to Cu
He can use the aluminum for the hots and a copper ground
I can't use that AL for my ground?
#21
06-18-12, 02:40 PM
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Your picture looks like these are separate conductors? If so, use 2 of the 3 for your hots and add a copper ground.
#22
06-18-12, 02:58 PM
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No, for a hot tub, jacuzzi or whatever you have to use an insulated copper ground wire. In your case it would be a #10.
As stated previously, this must be in conduit. Indoors, you may use FMC, pvc, emt or whatever but, it must be in conduit.
Sorry, earlier I said it could be uninsulated but that's just if it's in a sheathed cable.
As stated previously, this must be in conduit. Indoors, you may use FMC, pvc, emt or whatever but, it must be in conduit.
Sorry, earlier I said it could be uninsulated but that's just if it's in a sheathed cable.
#23
06-18-12, 03:11 PM
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Your picture looks like these are separate conductors?
What would be the easiest conduit for a 70 foot pull? EMT would slide along, greenfield is flexable. ?
Last edited by OhioSteve; 06-18-12 at 03:57 PM.
#24
06-18-12, 06:09 PM
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He can use the aluminum for the hots and a copper ground, run it in greenfield, conduit or whatever (as long as it's inside)to his disconnect
#26
06-19-12, 02:49 AM
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Joe,
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .
Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.
Tolyn,
I agree with the conduit run. It just seems sometimes there so much under a house sometimes I'll measure the greenfield, stretch it out in the yard, pull the wire in it, then go back under the house and get it strapped up. Especially if there's a lot of bends.
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .
Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.
Tolyn,
I agree with the conduit run. It just seems sometimes there so much under a house sometimes I'll measure the greenfield, stretch it out in the yard, pull the wire in it, then go back under the house and get it strapped up. Especially if there's a lot of bends.
Last edited by pcboss; 06-20-12 at 06:44 AM. Reason: clarity
#28
06-19-12, 04:52 PM
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May not be able to use the #10 wire. The manual that came with states:
"A wire connector is provided on this unit to connect a minimum No. 6 AWG solid copper conductor between this unit and any metal equipment or conduit within 5 feet of this unit."
A #10 would have pulled so much easier
"A wire connector is provided on this unit to connect a minimum No. 6 AWG solid copper conductor between this unit and any metal equipment or conduit within 5 feet of this unit."
A #10 would have pulled so much easier
#29
06-20-12, 06:46 AM
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If the conductor are oversized for any reason, the grounding conductor must be increased in size also. Even tho the circuit size may have only called for a #10 the increased conductor size would change this.
#30
06-21-12, 02:29 PM
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Ok, I want to make sure I understand this correctly. I can use the AL #4 wire that is with the two #2 hots as a ground, from the breaker panel out to the disconnect (50amp GFCI) by the hot tub. From the disconnect to the tub, I have to use a #6 copper since it is outside? Wouldn't the point that I go through the back wall (with the AL,) technically be outside at that point?
#31
06-21-12, 07:14 PM
Wouldn't the point that I go through the back wall (with the AL,) technically be outside at that point?
I'm curious. Why do you think you need to use 6AWG for the EGC?
#33
06-22-12, 04:57 PM
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Joe,
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .
Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .
Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.
#34
06-22-12, 07:53 PM
Assuming the OP was going to use aluminum SER cable to travel through his basement, why would a copper ground conductor be required in addition to the SER cable?
#35
06-23-12, 02:31 PM
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I guess I could just call my local codes and permits dept and ask them, as I'm still confused. But in section 680.21, part (4) it states
But it also states
One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings or accessory buildings, any Chapter 3 wiring method with a minimum 12 AWG equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted. [680.21(A)(1)]. Figure 680-4 un680-04 680-21A4.cdr
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath).
