OhioSteve: Spa wiring


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Old 06-16-12, 04:58 PM
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OhioSteve: Spa wiring

Got a jacuzzi that I need some help in figuring out the wiring.
It uses a 3 wire system, 2 hot and ground. Manual says it will pull
around 40 amps.
1. Can I use #4 aluminum wire with that, and what is the
downside to aluminum vs copper? This wire will be ran in the basement (open air).
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
So I'm covered at the jacuzzi end, but what do you do at the breaker panel?
2. Can a regular 50 amp breaker be used there?
3. Are GFCI's effective without a neutral, as this only has the ground wire? If so
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral? Seems the pigtail
wire won't be effective without some sort of ground connection.
Thanks

(If this is more of an "electrical topic," please feel free to move it).
 
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Old 06-16-12, 06:21 PM
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This wire will be ran in the basement (open air).
Purchased an outside 50 amp GFCI, which will go by the jacuzzi.
Please explain more fully. Individual wires must be in conduit. Cable must be protected where exposed.

Can a regular 50 amp breaker be used there?
At the main panel yes so long as there is GFCI protection at the spa.

Are GFCI's effective without a neutral, as this only has the ground wire? If so
do I run run a jumper between the ground and neutral?
No . A ground should never be used as a neutral. In this case the GFCI operates on mv differences between the two hots. The neutral is not required.
 
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Old 06-16-12, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ray2047
Please explain more fully. Individual wires must be in conduit. Cable must be protected where exposed.
Sorry, just meant it wont be buried underground. Will be ran along the rafters.
Says on the cable "USE, RHA, or RHW, 60 mills". Should be good for 40 amps, yes?
 
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Old 06-16-12, 07:12 PM
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60 mills is less then #14. way to small for your purposes. USE is not intended for use in a dwelling as far as I know. Can you post a picture of this cable?
 
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Old 06-16-12, 08:02 PM
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USE as in Underground Service Entrance? Not for use in a dwelling as Ray said.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 06:30 AM
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Well darnit. If I could have used that, is would have saved me about $300 in new copper wire. I could see not wanting to use wire made for above ground in an underground application (water, faster breakdown), but why not the other way around?
 
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Old 06-17-12, 06:48 AM
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If you wanted to use that wire, it would be required to be installed in conduit (EMT, PVC, FMC) the entire way. It is not allowed to be installed "free air". Cable used inside is required to have an outside sheath. (IE: romex) And with that size wire you would be looking at running 1 1/4" EMT or 1 1/2" PVC.

BTW - that wire is #2. Quite a bit overkill.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 06:58 AM
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Is that for possible heat/fire problems. Would almost seem to me, that confining wire inside conduit, would make the heat problem worse? But at least you gave me an option as to how I can use that wire. Even tho its probably a 70' run, it will still be cheaper to conduit it, than to buy new wire.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 07:11 AM
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It is more for the toxic smoke that the wire gives off when it burns. As far as the heat inside the pipe, that wire and pipe is sized to handle any heat created by the current in the wire.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 08:36 AM
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BTW - that wire is #2. Quite a bit overkill
Well it was free from my father in law who got it at an auction

The spa orginally called for #6 copper, and #2 aluminum I believe is good for 90 amps.? So yes, your right, it is a bit over kill (by about double,) but should get me by.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 09:28 AM
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It may not fit the breakers.

Side Note: The 60 mill you originally posted is the thickness of the insulation. The 2 AWG on the sheath is wire size.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 11:16 AM
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It may not fit the breakers.
Too big for the lug screws? I didn't think about that.
So how does one work around that issue if that turns out to be my case?
 
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Old 06-17-12, 11:58 AM
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Splice it to #6 copper with an approved copper to aluminum connector, such as Polaris, in an approved junction box before entering the panel.
 
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Old 06-17-12, 12:02 PM
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You have to pigtail to smaller wires. You will probably have room in the main breaker panel. The spa breaker box may be crowded. You may have to add a junction box. Because this is aluminum the pigtails will have to be made with expensive special connectors such as Polaris connectors. The connectors may cost almost as much as using the correct size wire. Example: Polaris Wire Connectors Shipped Fast
 
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Old 06-17-12, 01:15 PM
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But won't I lose my amp rating at the point of splice if I step it up a wire gauge or 2? (#2 to #6)

Edit: Never mind. You said use copper. My fault.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 02:34 AM
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Your ground MUST be copper. It can be uninsulated if it's in the house but must be insulated outside the house, a #10 would be ok.

You can always use something flexible like "greenfield" on the interior wiring.

As far as the breaker in the panel, I would use a 60 amp breaker(same price as a 50), as the lugs should be good for #2, then feed your GFI panel and come off the load side to your jacuzzi.

Most jacuzzi/hot tub manufacturers specify "use only copper conductors so, from the load side of the disconnect with #8 THHN/THWN and #10 ground.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 04:08 AM
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But won't I lose my amp rating at the point of splice if I step it up a wire gauge or 2? (#2 to #6)
No because number 6 copper or aluminum is rated for the maximum ampacity of the wire.
Edit: Never mind. You said use copper. My fault.
Actually I didn't specify a wire type but special connectors are always needed for Al to Al or Al to Cu.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 04:10 AM
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Wirenut1110, he has USE #2 AL he wants to use.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 10:30 AM
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Wirenut1110, he has USE #2 AL he wants to use.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/ne...#ixzz1yAPuTrud
Right? I'm not sure what the problem is? He can use the aluminum for the hots and a copper ground, run it in greenfield, conduit or whatever (as long as it's inside)to his disconnect, then all copper from the disconnect to hot tub.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 02:16 PM
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Actually I didn't specify a wire type but special connectors are always needed for Al to Al or Al to Cu
Sorry that was meant at the post before yours.

He can use the aluminum for the hots and a copper ground
Copper ground? I'm confused. The #2 has a ground (with the 2 hots). Are you saying
I can't use that AL for my ground?
 
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Old 06-18-12, 02:40 PM
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Your picture looks like these are separate conductors? If so, use 2 of the 3 for your hots and add a copper ground.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 02:58 PM
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No, for a hot tub, jacuzzi or whatever you have to use an insulated copper ground wire. In your case it would be a #10.

As stated previously, this must be in conduit. Indoors, you may use FMC, pvc, emt or whatever but, it must be in conduit.

Sorry, earlier I said it could be uninsulated but that's just if it's in a sheathed cable.
 
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Old 06-18-12, 03:11 PM
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Your picture looks like these are separate conductors?
Your right. I had to go look myself. They are twisted together, but individual wires. Good. That will make the pull easier. Take out the AL ground, and put in a #10 copper.

What would be the easiest conduit for a 70 foot pull? EMT would slide along, greenfield is flexable. ?
 

Last edited by OhioSteve; 06-18-12 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 06-18-12, 06:09 PM
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He can use the aluminum for the hots and a copper ground, run it in greenfield, conduit or whatever (as long as it's inside)to his disconnect
I don't claim to be a code expert on the wiring of pools or hottubs, but I am confused on why the ground inside the house to the disconnect has to be copper when the hot and neutral conductors are aluminum. Wouldn't this be treated as any other subpanel?
 
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Old 06-18-12, 06:18 PM
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IMO EMT would be the easiest but I use it everyday. PVC might be a better option if you have no experience with EMT. Flex would be my last choice.
 
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Old 06-19-12, 02:49 AM
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Joe,
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .

Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.

Tolyn,
I agree with the conduit run. It just seems sometimes there so much under a house sometimes I'll measure the greenfield, stretch it out in the yard, pull the wire in it, then go back under the house and get it strapped up. Especially if there's a lot of bends.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 06-20-12 at 06:44 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 06-19-12, 03:33 PM
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Especially if there's a lot of bends.
Even with Greenfield, you may only have 360 degrees worth of bends. (IE: 4 90's)
 
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Old 06-19-12, 04:52 PM
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May not be able to use the #10 wire. The manual that came with states:
"A wire connector is provided on this unit to connect a minimum No. 6 AWG solid copper conductor between this unit and any metal equipment or conduit within 5 feet of this unit."
A #10 would have pulled so much easier
 
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Old 06-20-12, 06:46 AM
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If the conductor are oversized for any reason, the grounding conductor must be increased in size also. Even tho the circuit size may have only called for a #10 the increased conductor size would change this.
 
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Old 06-21-12, 02:29 PM
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Ok, I want to make sure I understand this correctly. I can use the AL #4 wire that is with the two #2 hots as a ground, from the breaker panel out to the disconnect (50amp GFCI) by the hot tub. From the disconnect to the tub, I have to use a #6 copper since it is outside? Wouldn't the point that I go through the back wall (with the AL,) technically be outside at that point?
 
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Old 06-21-12, 07:14 PM
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Wouldn't the point that I go through the back wall (with the AL,) technically be outside at that point?
No. "Outside" includes the outside disconnect and everything beyond that. Think of the wall box for a porch light, or an exterior receptacle. Or, better yet, for the supply to the outside condensing unit of a central a/c system. Inside wiring - Type NM - is fed into each of those.

I'm curious. Why do you think you need to use 6AWG for the EGC?
 
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Old 06-21-12, 08:27 PM
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Some hot tubs call for a full sized EGC in the installation instructions.
 
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Old 06-22-12, 04:57 PM
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Joe,
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath). .

Once it leaves the interior it changes. Most hot tub manufacturers will say to use copper conductors only so, he will need to run all copper from his disconnect to the hot tub. A lot of HVAC manufacturers do this too.
With this I agree, but it's the ground conductor between the main service panel and the disconnect on the house where I don't understand; why must it be copper? Assuming the OP was going to use aluminum SER cable to travel through his basement, why would a copper ground conductor be required in addition to the SER cable? I haven't researched article 680 yet, but I will when I get some time.
 
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Old 06-22-12, 07:53 PM
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Assuming the OP was going to use aluminum SER cable to travel through his basement, why would a copper ground conductor be required in addition to the SER cable?
Same question I had .
 
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Old 06-23-12, 02:31 PM
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I guess I could just call my local codes and permits dept and ask them, as I'm still confused. But in section 680.21, part (4) it states
One-Family Dwellings. In one-family dwellings or accessory buildings, any Chapter 3 wiring method with a minimum 12 AWG equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted. [680.21(A)(1)]. Figure 680-4 un680-04 680-21A4.cdr
But it also states
Article 680 for a hot tub/jacuzzi that's installed outdoors needs to have a insulated copper ground. It allows any wiring method of Chapter 3, as long as it's on the inside of the dwelling(insulated or uninsulated provided it's in a sheath).
 
 

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