electrical panel

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  #1  
Old 06-23-12, 01:40 PM
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electrical panel

So I am wiring up my basement. I have a GE electrical box and when I am done it will be very full. My question is on the right side I have the white wire hookup. The other side I have the ground wire hookup. I have the breakers in the middle. My question isÖ

The white wire are just as the ground is installed, they install into a hole which a crew is forced against the wire to connected it and hold it in place. This is also how the ground is done on the other side. The ground side is up to two wires in one location under one screw. I need a few more spots for the white side. Am I able to do the same thing on the side that the white wires all connect to? Can I double up a couple of those white wires and place them under the same screw?
 
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  #2  
Old 06-23-12, 02:59 PM
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Most likely not. Read the label on the panel cover. It should say how many of what size can go into the grounding and the neutral bars.
 
  #3  
Old 06-23-12, 03:02 PM
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You can wire nut two whites to a pigtail and run the pigtail to the neutral bar*.


*May not be valid in Canada.
 
  #4  
Old 06-23-12, 03:02 PM
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Is this the main panel, or an additional panel [Sub-panel] being served from the main? If itís the main, then the white conductors and neutrals can share the same grounding bar with bare and green type conductors. White conductors and neutrals ďCannotĒ share the same hole. Regardless of the type of panel.
So:
Main panel= a. Neutral and white conductors can share the same grounding bar with bare and green type conductors. b. Neutral and white conductors cannot share the same hole. c. White and neutral conductors cannot share the same hole with bare or green type conductors. Sub-panel= a. Neutrals and white conductors cannot share the same grounding bar as the bare and green type conductors. b. Neutral and white conductors cannot share the same hole
c. White and neutral conductors cannot share the same hole with bare or green type conductors.No Beer 4U
For clarity: Bare in this case=Equipment grounding conductors, or any conductor listed for grounding--where the grounded and neutral conductors arenít involved.
 

Last edited by SeaOn; 06-23-12 at 03:50 PM. Reason: I added clarityóI think
  #5  
Old 06-23-12, 03:22 PM
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A picture would help

Putting two whites together violates 200.4 - Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit ...

Depending on the panel, the grounding bus can be used but must be listed. The idea is that current should not be running through the case.
 
  #6  
Old 06-23-12, 03:33 PM
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A grounding bus cannot be used for the neutrals.
 
  #7  
Old 06-23-12, 03:40 PM
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@ pcboss, why not? What if itís a main service rated panel?
 
  #8  
Old 06-23-12, 03:47 PM
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What we need to stay away from is making the OP confused. Grounding/Bonding is confusing enough for the average electrician.
 
  #9  
Old 06-23-12, 04:13 PM
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Putting two whites together violates 200.4
Are you sure on the cite. I do not have a 200.4 in my copy of 2008. It skips from 200.3 to 2.006. Not disagreeing but wonder if you are thinking of the situation of two neutrals from different branch circuits in the same junction box.
 
  #10  
Old 06-23-12, 04:54 PM
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Neutral conductors shall not be used for more than one branch circuit ...
A multi-wire branch circuit shares a common neutral.
 
  #11  
Old 06-23-12, 04:54 PM
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I jumped the gun. It is in 2011 so probably not required for OP.

200.4 Neutral Conductors. Neutral conductors shall not
be used for more than one branch circuit, for more than one
multiwire branch circuit, or for more than one set of ungrounded
feeder conductors
To comply could combine two circuits into a MWBC and handle-tie two breakers.

If pre-2011 and without a MWBC upsizing the pigtail is needed.

If inspector doesn't like wire nuts then add a box or sub panel.
 
  #12  
Old 06-23-12, 08:21 PM
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I agree with post #10. Hope we arenít loosing the OP
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 06-23-12 at 09:10 PM.
  #13  
Old 06-23-12, 11:58 PM
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Just install a ground bar and move the ground wires to it. and no you cant just simply splice neutral wires together into a pigtail

secondly OP never made mention of a MWBC, A MWBC would only have 1 neutral anyway, why that whole subject came up is beyond me
 
  #14  
Old 06-24-12, 12:11 AM
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l"PCBoss" "
A grounding bus cannot be used for the neutrals."


please quote the code article that says " I cant use a grounding"bus" for neutrals
 

Last edited by pcboss; 06-24-12 at 07:19 PM.
  #15  
Old 06-24-12, 03:56 AM
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I will post pics tomorrow
 
  #16  
Old 06-24-12, 06:29 AM
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ok you ever heard of a main breaker panel ? please quote the code article that says " I cant use a grounding"bus" for neutrals
I don't have a code reference, but for those who really don't know I think a bit of common sense should prevail here. In my opinion, using a ground bar for neutral conductors would be turning the panel box bond between the ground bar and neutral bus into a path for current to flow. In other words, current would be flowing through the steel box to get to the true neutral. I like to stress that the code is not an instruction book, but provides rules for safe installations. I don't suppose Rich will be back to comment.

Any other opinions?
 
  #17  
Old 06-24-12, 08:11 AM
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Maybe it depends on the manufacturer, but my grounding bar is on top of the neutral bar.
 
  #18  
Old 06-24-12, 08:55 AM
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I cant use a grounding"bus" for neutrals
It depends on the panel. If the grounding bus is just screwed into the case, then no. When the manufacturer provides a separate bonding jumper they will say what can be put on which bus.

Code reference as asked for is new for 2008:
200.2 (B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.
 
  #19  
Old 06-24-12, 10:00 AM
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Astuff pretty much got it! But 200.2 was changed from the 2005 NEC.
To stop all the confusion, itís best to agree with CasualJoeóas what he suggest is the best option and code complaint for today.
 
  #20  
Old 06-24-12, 12:31 PM
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The pics i am trying to post will show the separation in ground and white wires. I am not sure i can interchange both for one and another. The white wires are all on their own bank to the right and copper ground on their own to the left. How do i add more white wires to this panel?
 
  #21  
Old 06-24-12, 12:34 PM
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If this worked you have two pics. One upclose of the area i am working on and the oter of the full ge panel.
 
  #22  
Old 06-24-12, 01:16 PM
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It would seem my only option is to pigtail a couple wires to complete the connections. Is that allowed in the nec 2011 code? Can i do that?
 
  #23  
Old 06-24-12, 01:50 PM
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I rushed on this one, so donít tease me.
But it should answer your questionóif the service is a main service rated panel. Note: Iím off to a movie, so others will correct any mistakes I made, or didnít add. Also see post #4.



http://i999.photobucket.com/albums/a...Panelbus17.png
 
  #24  
Old 06-24-12, 02:12 PM
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grounds i am ok, they re doubled up already. its the other side the white wires. So can i take you remarks and apply them to the other side (white wires)? I am not sure i understand or it i do and you were talking about the ground side rather then the white wire side.

Sorry
 
  #25  
Old 06-24-12, 02:29 PM
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I think he is saying buy another ground bar and install it on the same side as your neutral bar. There will be a bonding strip that you run from the ground bar to the neutral bar to tie them together. That makes it suitable for grounding use. In post #4, he says if this is a main service panel, you can put the neutrals and grounds on either bar because it doesn't matter. They should be bonded to each other.

Mod Note: Please see the corrections posted by Nash below.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 06-24-12 at 07:53 PM.
  #26  
Old 06-24-12, 06:47 PM
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So i tested the ground and white wire and it does appear they are connected. So i would be able to if i understand correctly hook the rest of my white onto the ground side of the panel.
 
  #27  
Old 06-24-12, 06:55 PM
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So i tested the ground and white wire and it does appear they are connected.
How did you test for that?
 
  #28  
Old 06-24-12, 07:06 PM
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@ rob,
Yes.

Drooplug got it mostly right.
Here is what dropplug said (note: I have entered my comment in red): I think he is saying buy another ground bar and install it on the same side as your neutral bar. There will be a bonding strip that you run from the ground bar to the neutral bar to tie them together. That makes it suitable for neutral use.Note: Yes, but it want be suitable for neutral use, only grounding conductor use. It seems they have changed this requirement. Itís best to transfer the existing grounding conductors to any newly added (or existing) grounding bar(s) that is directly attached to housing of the panel. (Note: Notice the neutral bus bars do not make direct contact with the panel housing. Itís only connection is through a bonding jumper). To add: Transferring grounding conductors to a grounding bar, will make room for the neutral to terminate to the neutral barówhich is bonded to the panel housing. the In post #4, he says if this is a main service panel, you can put the neutrals and grounds on either bar because it doesn't matter. They should be bonded to each other. Note: Exactly!! Just make sure the neutral (white) conductors do not terminate under the same screw of any other conductors.
****Please note that Iím using the word neutral to ID conductors that arenít neutrals. Iím doing this just to keep the OP lucid on the topic. Meaning: iím not being technically correct
 

Last edited by SeaOn; 06-24-12 at 07:45 PM.
  #29  
Old 06-24-12, 07:15 PM
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i took a meter and tested with the beep function with the metter to see if they were connected.

ok so i cant use the open conectors on the ground side of the breaker for the white ones right?
 
  #30  
Old 06-24-12, 07:41 PM
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So i tested the ground and white wire and it does appear they are connected. So i would be able to if i understand correctly hook the rest of my white onto the ground side of the panel.
Correct!! But the neutral conductors cannot be terminated together, or with any other conductor. It ďmustĒ have its own spot.


@ Nash,
are you asking the OP because you want to know if he done the test correctly?
 
  #31  
Old 06-24-12, 08:29 PM
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when you say termindated on its own and not together does that mean as long as it has its own hole? if the main row of holes have ground copper wire in them i can use it as long as i have a few empty ones. This is ok even with them on the same row as the copper right?
 
  #32  
Old 06-24-12, 08:46 PM
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i took a meter and tested with the beep function with the metter to see if they were connected.
That sounds like you tested for continuity between the two bus bars. If so, there are many ways for that test to show positive, none of which will answer the question of whether the neutral and the ground are intended to be bonded within this panel. See post #18.

The answer to your original question about combining neutrals is in post #11.
 
  #33  
Old 06-24-12, 09:23 PM
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So my box has the netural and ground on the same line. So The exstra space i have on the ground side i can use for the rest of my netural. see what ya think and if i am on the right track.

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  #34  
Old 06-25-12, 12:12 AM
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If your panel has the same setup as the below, then yes, you are on the right track. Note: I guess you didnít understand what I was saying. Iím not a pro at explaining myself.
PS: Thanks for the pic
 
  #35  
Old 06-25-12, 06:55 AM
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I think it was more i was lost all together and not your explaining lol Thanks so much for the help!
 
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