NJ code for spa and shed.

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  #1  
Old 07-14-12, 08:14 AM
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NJ code for spa and shed.

So all that been following my chicken coop wiring I have a concern here and dont know where to find the code. Possible someone failed to tell me I may not be in complience with proper code.

Anyway here is the NJ code.


New Jersey Electrical Code


What I need to know, and I dont know where to look, is am I allowed to have a 110 and 220 line in the same conduit?

When I ran my spa panal the electrician ran a 110 line with the 220. Since the spa was by the shed and the 60 amp box would be mounted on the shed, the 110 line was run to give me a light and outlet in shed.


So please let me know where to start reading. I am sure there are various areas of code and one code will supersede another. And thats where the pros come in.

My goal? Fix whats wrong with my set up.
 
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Old 07-14-12, 07:43 PM
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It may have been coincidental but shortly after opening that link to the NJ code my computer started to go crazy. I had to shut down Firefox and then did a complete scan. No threats found.

What I need to know, and I dont know where to look, is am I allowed to have a 110 and 220 line in the same conduit?
I suggest that you start at the beginning and read all of the first several chapters. Knowing how dull and difficult this is to read I'd be surprised if anyone other than myself and Justin have ever done so.

To answer your question more directly, there is nothing in the code that prohibits circuits of different voltages from being in the same conduit, WITH some notable exceptions. You cannot have class 2 or class 3 wiring in the same conduit as class 1 wiring. It doesn't appear that the definitions of the various classes are listed in the definitions section so you would have to look in the index. Suffice to say that class 2 and class 3 are generally signaling, communications and alarm circuits. Running 240 volt and 120 volt class 1 (everything but class 2 and class 3) circuits in the same conduit is perfectly acceptable as long as all wires are insulated for the highest nominal voltage. Since all wire suitable for class 1 wiring is insulated to a minimum of 300 volts this is covered.

In your particular instance, the two branch circuits in the conduit from the house to the shed would be fine IF this conduit run was all contained in one building. It is the fact that the conduit run is BETWEEN separate buildings that causes the problem. Only ONE circuit may be installed to a separate building and you have two. This is covered in Article 225.3 in great depth. There ARE certain conditions that will allow multiple circuits but none of them apply in your case. This is pretty much the universally accepted interpretation but in your particular case since the 50 ampere spa circuit doesn't actually enter the shed it MAY be exempt from this requirement. This would require a letter from your local inspector stating the two circuits are acceptable and I would keep such a letter available for as long as that second circuit was installed. In my mind it is easier to use the 50 ampere 240/120 volt circuit in conjunction with a sub-panel and abandoning the 120 volt circuit than in trying to get the two circuits approved. Others may have a different opinion.
 
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Old 07-14-12, 07:44 PM
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Normally there is no issue with having a 120 and a 240 in the same conduit. One question I would ask would be are either of these a GFI protected feeder?
 
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Old 07-14-12, 08:45 PM
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I have to soak this all in.........


The breaker at the main panel is a 50 amp GFI.

The breaker at the outside panel is a 50 amp non gfi.

110 is run in this conduit with 220 and a gfi is first in the 110 shed line.
 
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Old 07-14-12, 11:19 PM
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I would read 680.10 and 680.23(F)(3), although the second one may not apply it is similar to one I seem to remember that GFI and non-GFI cannot share a conduit.
 
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Old 07-15-12, 10:51 PM
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680.23(F)(3) says I cannot run the load side gfi conductors through the spa box unless one of the 4 items apply.

1. The other conductors are protected by GFI. ( Yes the spa breaker in the home is a 50 amp gfi.)

The other 3 I dont fully understand but I pass the one above so I assume I am good there.


Still reading.... LOL. I can be reading for months.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 01:28 AM
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Since Article 680 refers to spas, pools and the like and you don't have any of these, I suggest that you do not have to follow any provisions of Article 680.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 09:07 AM
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In my mind it is easier to use the 50 ampere 240/120 volt circuit in conjunction with a sub-panel and abandoning the 120 volt circuit than in trying to get the two circuits approved. Others may have a different opinion.


I am on section 400 in the NJ code and I can tell you one thing... I would never want to be an electrician.


Furd, so what you are saying is termiate the 110 line and use the 220 to power the shed and coop? would I change the breakers in the main panal to two 20 amp or leave the 50 amp there?

Oh wait reading your post I would put a sub panel in the shed and remove the spa panal?

The problem is the #8 wire ends at the spa box and I would not be able to pull anymore to get inside. If I used whats there the panel would need to be 2 ft off the floor then to get enough wire in there for a panel.

Ok may be talking out the arse here so I will keep reading....
 

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  #9  
Old 07-16-12, 09:39 AM
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What read was no Spa so you are fine. Just finish and go scramble some eggs.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 10:42 AM
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I can tell you one thing... I would never want to be an electrician.
Mike, we don't actually have to "know the code," as in memorizing it, to become licensed. What we do have to know is how the code is organized - what section applies to a given question, and how to find the applicable section(s) quickly. That's why we tend to say things like
Since Article 680 refers to spas, pools and the like and you don't have any of these, I suggest that you do not have to follow any provisions of Article 680. (~Furd)
Now that you've reminded us that
The breaker at the main panel [for the old spa panel] is a 50 amp GFI.

The breaker at the outside panel is a 50 amp non gfi.

110 is run in this conduit with 220 and a gfi is first in the 110 shed line.
I would be tempted, frankly, to replace the panel breaker for the 120V circuit with a 20A GFCI breaker, and replace the GFCI receptacle in the shed with a standard receptacle. Then just wire everything up the way you were going to, but you don't have to fool with keeping the LINE and LOAD wires straight anymore. That would give you the best level of protection overall, it seems to me, and should meet all relevant code requirements.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 11:20 AM
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I would be tempted, frankly, to replace the panel breaker for the 120V circuit with a 20A GFCI breaker, and replace the GFCI receptacle in the shed with a standard receptacle. Then just wire everything up the way you were going to, but you don't have to fool with keeping the LINE and LOAD wires straight anymore. That would give you the best level of protection overall, it seems to me, and should meet all relevant code requirements.
OK that sounds good. I may do that. So change the 20 amp to a gfi 20 amp. Then change to a non gfi in the shed. OK


So where my line comes into the metal box I will branch off to the shed outlet and branch off to the coop? Sound right? So basically in the metal box I will have three hots together, three neutrals together, and keep the one ground? Continue with the other grounds off the spa box bar?


If this is right then I would prefer to do this.



 
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Old 07-16-12, 11:44 AM
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So where my line comes into the metal box I will branch off to the shed outlet and branch off to the coop? Sound right? So basically in the metal box I will have three hots together, three neutrals together, and keep the one ground? Continue with the other grounds off the spa box bar?

If this is right then I would prefer to do this.
If by "three hots together, three neutrals together" you're referring to two long wires - one panel feed and one coop load - plus a pigtail for the shed receptacle, then yes, that sounds right.

Y'know what? I don't see any reason anymore to carry everything through to the metal box. That was only needed when you needed to connect to LINE side protection on the GFCI. I think I'd make the splices in the old spa box and use extra-long pigtails to send through the nipple to the shed receptacle. One hot, one neutral and a ground off the bus bar. Still take the ground to both the metal box and the receptacle, since the spa box is plastic.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 11:57 AM
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I think I'd make the splices in the old spa box and use extra-long pigtails to send through the nipple to the shed receptacle. One hot, one neutral and a ground off the bus bar. Still take the ground to both the metal box and the receptacle, since the spa box is plastic.
I cant envision that , but I think you mean why go into the metal box to wirenut only to come back through for the coop? Or less wires through the nipple basically?


So in my laymens terms,

Keep the line from the panel in the spa box and don't go through to the metal box.
Tie the line from the panel to the coop wiring. Grounds to spa bar.
Send ground from bar and a hot and neutral pigtail through to the metal box to nut into the romex for the shed receptacle.

Sound right?

 
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Old 07-16-12, 12:59 PM
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Yep.
to nut into the romex for the shed receptacle.
I thought the shed receptacle mounted into that metal box on the other end of the nipple. Not so?
 
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Old 07-16-12, 01:46 PM
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I thought the shed receptacle mounted into that metal box on the other end of the nipple. Not so?
No the matel box is just a metal box. The GFI for the shed is some 5ft away.

The metal box was for the line from the panel THWN to romex transition. The THWN panal line comes into the spa panel with no breaks and right into the metal box.


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  #16  
Old 07-16-12, 02:09 PM
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There are several ways to deal with the problem. You could eliminate the existing 120 volt line and change out the existing GFCI circuit breaker at the house for a 20 ampere model and then use the existing 50 ampere circuit breaker in the spa panel as a local disconnect. The circuit could then be divided as a 20 ampere multi-wire branch circuit (MWBC) and one side power the shed while the other side powers the chicken house.

Or several other scenarios.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 02:31 PM
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The only reason I was thinking of keeping the 220 was for future use.

Such as if I ever got rid of the chickens and got another hot tub. Or my wife and I were thinking about getting a camper (5th wheel) with a 50 amp service. I could make an RV pedestal.


But I guess I could pull everything out of the 1" conduit and sell the #8 copper and possibly run two 20 amp lines. Seems like I can do a lot.

I was reading about the MWBC, and will probably need to read that all section over again. Because I am not at all sure how to split the 220 line to code compliance.


Uggg. Every time I think I have it down someone throws a wrench in the works.... Furd???
 
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Old 07-16-12, 03:16 PM
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Need another wrench?

If you pull the existing wires out of the conduit then pull in #6 (assuming the conduit is large enough and install a main breaker sub-panel in the garage. Feed it with a 60 ampere circuit breaker from the house. With this arrangement you can have 240 volts for an air compressor, welder, hot tub or RV but not all at the same time. You would still have room for 120 volt circuits for the chicken house, shed lighting, shed receptacles and yard lighting.

Previously you stated that the 240 volt circuit was either #6 or #8. Have you definitively determined that it is #8? What size is the conduit?
 
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Old 07-16-12, 04:29 PM
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Of course the lettering was all facing the back...LOL.

Disconnected one hot to read. Its #6 AWG. The conduit is 1", but I assume that does not matter now.

I did ask though since the #6 ends at that spa box how do I extend it into the shed if I were to run a sub? The sub would be mounted too low in the shed. Since I have 50amp breakers cant I just run a 50 amp sub?

I know I am probably complicating things and could be done already, but I would like to know every option before I continue. It seems there is something always better then what I have or am doing now.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 05:25 PM
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Good that it is #6 as that gives you the option to upgrade the supply to 60 amperes if it is ever needed.

Right now the #6 wires are terminated in the spa panel, the black and red to the incoming lugs feeding the circuit breaker, the white to the neutral bus and the green to the equipment ground bus. You will need to change the nipple from the spa panel that goes through the wall to the metal box inside the shed to a 3/4 inch nipple. It will be necessary to twist out the concentric knock-out in the back of the spa panel (or maybe carve it out if it is plastic) to allow the 3/4 inch nipple. Remove the present metal box and substitute an LB conduit fitting (L shaped with a removable back) or use a deep 4 inch or 4-11/16 inch square box. Run conduit to where you want the sub-panel, you can use flexible metallic conduit if it makes the job easier.

Mount the sub-panel near the shed door and where you will not stack junk, er, valuable treasures, in front of the panel. Pull a black, white and red #6 type THHN/THWN wire through the spa panel to the sub-panel. Connect the black and red wires to the spa circuit breaker output lugs and then to the inlet lugs on the sub-panel. Connect the white wire to the neutral bus in each panel. Remove (or don't install) the equipment grounding screw or strap in the sub-panel, this will vary according to the manufacturer of the sub-panel. Install an auxiliary equipment ground bus (purchased separately) in the sub-panel in the appropriate location. Run a green #10 type THHN/THWN wire from the spa panel to the sub-panel and connect to the green equipment ground bus in the spa panel and the auxiliary equipment ground bus in the sub-panel.

You do NOT need a "main breaker" panel for the sub but can use a "main lugs only" (MLO) panel because the circuit breaker in the spa panel serves as a local disconnect. Eliminate the existing 120 volt circuit.

OR

You can remove the spa panel completely and substitute a weatherproof splice box. I prefer plastic in outdoors locations but metal is acceptable as long as it is properly "bonded" to the equipment grounding conductor. The rest is the same except you would then need a main breaker sub-panel. You could even use an outdoor rated (NEMA 3R) sub-panel and do it all on the outside.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 05:40 PM
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OK Furd. My wife was reading over my shoulder.

Can you link me to the proper lug only panel and regular sub panel you speak of? What I see on line is greek to me.

My wife says this Furd guy is costing us money...LOL. I like the option and would like inexpensive, but I know some things are what they are.

And thank you for your time so far Joel. I very much appreciate it.
 
  #22  
Old 07-16-12, 06:14 PM
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Tell your wife that I am really, really good at spending other people's money!

I have a couple of these panels in my home. As I recall I spent around $20-25 each for them with no breakers. This is a main lug panel.

Siemens 125 Amp Main Lug Indoor Panel 12-Space 24-Circuit -DISCONTINUED G1224L1125 at The Home Depot

Prices on anything made of metal have risen substantially in the last few years, it makes me sick what things cost these days.


This is a Square D panel made for outdoors installations. It is still a main lug panel but you CAN use two of the spaces and an auxiliary hold down device and make it a main breaker panel. Since you already have some spare Square D circuit breakers this might be more economical.

Shop Square D 12-Circuit 6-Space 100-Amp Main Lug Load Center at Lowes.com

Honestly, if you are fairly close to a megamart homecenter it is probably easiest to just cruise the electrical aisle looking at the various panels and prices. Sometimes you can get a pretty good deal on a combo pack that includes several circuit breakers but I think in your case you would get more breakers than you need so just the panel and only the breakers you need would be best. The amp rating is almost immaterial, anything from a 60 amp on up is fine, it is the number of spaces for circuit breakers that is important, especially so if you want to have multiple 240 volt circuits as they take two spaces. Sometimes you can get two-space, 240 volt breakers that also have two complete circuits in order to save spaces.

Remember, there a LOTS of ways to do what you want to accomplish immediately and you can always come back and do more at a later date. The sub-panel gives you the most flexibility but is going to have the highest initial cost.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 09:32 PM
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Joel that square D panel looks good. Lets talk about some things if you do not mind.

Its 100 amp but what is this auxiliary hold down? ( No results on line)
I would be able to remove the spa box and install this in its place? Then feed the shed and coop with 20 amp breakers?
I would be able to use the two 50 amp breakers I have? ( one GFI, One is not) I can upgrade at a later date with bigger breakers?

I have 5 or so 20 amp square D breakers in my junk box that I can use left over from my service
upgrade since I have a square d panel.

With #6 wire whats the max amps? I read you said 60 amps? ( 75 ft of #6 from main panel to spa box.)

That box shows only $35 bucks. I have everything else I need I think.

This is exciting to me and its more of what I what to do. ( Wife wants me to get a job and says I have too much time on my hands..LOL)
 
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Old 07-16-12, 10:39 PM
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Really interesting. I leave for a couple of hours and when I get back you guys have gone from replacing one single-pole breaker to replacing a 2-pole breaker and the wire in the conduit - and adding a subpanel.

These here chickens are getting expensive!
 
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Old 07-16-12, 11:08 PM
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I used the wrong term, it is called a circuit breaker retainer. It's about $3 and is installed so that the main circuit breaker is securely held in place rather than just plugged onto the bus bars.

Square D by Schneider Electric QO Load Center Main Breaker Retaining Kit PK2MBCP at The Home Depot

Is the spa panel also a Square D? Circuit breakers are not interchangeable between manufacturers.

Yes, you could simply remove the spa panel and attach the Square D (NEMA 3R rated) panel in its place PROVIDED the wires were long enough to reach the main circuit breaker. If the wires are not long enough then you a junction box (plastic is my preference outdoors) at the conduit end and then an additional piece of conduit up to the new panel with additional wire in the conduit.

Yes, you may use the 20 ampere circuit breakers you have as long as they are Square D type QO (not Homeline) and the downstream wiring is #12. If you have any #14 wire you need to use a 15 ampere circuit breaker.

The biggest limitation is that it is only a 6-space panel. Two spaces will be used by the main breaker leaving only four spaces. Standard 120 volt circuit breakers use one space each and standard 240 volt circuit breakers use two spaces each. I'm pretty sure that Square D does make two-circuit breakers that allow for twice as many circuits as spaces but their availability may be limited and they do cost more.

If the existing wire in the conduit is #6 type THHN/THWN (or just THWN) then you can go as high as 60 amperes on the circuit breaker in the house panel. With a one-inch conduit you could go as large as #4 conductors if you needed to bump up the amperage in the future.
 
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Old 07-16-12, 11:32 PM
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Is the spa panel also a Square D? Circuit breakers are not interchangeable between manufacturers.
Yes.

Square D type QO (not Homeline) and the downstream wiring is #12. If you have any #14 wire you need to use a 15 ampere circuit breaker.
All QO and all #12 in the shed and what I bought for the coop.

If the existing wire in the conduit is #6 type THHN/THWN (or just THWN) then you can go as high as 60 amperes on the circuit breaker in the house panel.
Its THHN/THWN. So then I can just leave the 50 amp GFI in the main panel, and move the spa 50 amp non GFI to the new square D right? And get that retainer.

And pull the gfi outlet in the shed. The breaker is the GFI?

PROVIDED the wires were long enough to reach the main circuit breaker. If the wires are not long enough then you a junction box (plastic is my preference outdoors) at the conduit end and then an additional piece of conduit up to the new panel with additional wire in the conduit.
I was thinking I can just shorten the exixting conduit with a tubing cutter and pull that piece off and glue a new male adapter on to lower the box.Thats if they are too short. What do you think?

Also I know how to get out of that box to power the coop, but with this box how do I get in the shed?











 

Last edited by lawrosa; 07-16-12 at 11:37 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-16-12, 11:54 PM
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So then I can just leave the 50 amp GFI in the main panel, and move the spa 50 amp non GFI to the new square D right? And get that retainer.

And pull the gfi outlet in the shed. The breaker is the GFI?
Yep. The circuit breaker in the house will the GFCI for the entire sub-panel and connected circuits.


I was thinking I can just shorten the exixting conduit with a tubing cutter and pull that piece off and glue a new male adapter on to lower the box.Thats if they are too short. What do you think?
How high above the ground would the new panel be if you cut the existing conduit? You really want it to above the average snow depth.

Yes, you could use a tubing cutter to cut the PVC. I would advise you to CAREFULLY remove the internal burr with a knife. When you go to glue on the new thread adapter you don't need any primer and don't put any glue in the socket of the thread adapter, just a bit of glue slightly back from the end of the conduit. This is to prevent getting any glue on the wires.

Also I know how to get out of that box to power the coop, but with this box how do I get in the shed?
Easiest would be to come out of the bottom with 3/4 inch PVC conduit into an LB fitting (also PVC) and then through the wall of the shed. Run #12 black, white and green through this conduit into the splice box inside the shed that now has the type NM (Romex) cable and make the splice. I would change out the 2x4 splice box you have for a 4x4 for more room.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1950[/ATTACH]
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Old 07-17-12, 12:23 AM
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How high above the ground would the new panel be if you cut the existing conduit? You really want it to above the average snow depth.
The current spa panel is 30" from finish grade to bottom of panel...?

The LB fitting goes into the shed as your pic shows, then do I use a 4x4 LB box in the shed? With a piece of 3/4 conduit connecting the two?


I will head to mega-mart tomorrow and look around. Thanks Joel.


 
  #29  
Old 07-17-12, 02:41 PM
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I'd have thought that in 14 hours someone else might comment.

I like circuit breaker panels at about eye height which for me means about 60 inches. The NEC does not have a minimum height requirement, or at least didn't as of a couple of cycles back so maybe they do now. I don't know how much snow you get next to the shed but I think it would be a good idea to add a splice box in place of the spa panel and get the new circuit breaker panel up a bit higher than 30 inches. I would use a 6x6x4 PVC box similar to this.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1970[/ATTACH]
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Cutting a hole in the lower side of the box for the incoming conduit and one in the upper side for the outgoing conduit. The lower side you can just use a thread adapter on the conduit but on the upper side I would glue the thread adapter to the box in addition to using a locknut and bushing inside. If you can find one with hubs so much the better. You will still probably need to cut the existing conduit lower to get enough slack in the wires to make the splice.

You would use three #6 conductors, black, red and white to extend the existing conductors to the new circuit breaker panel along with a #10 green equipment grounding conductor. You can use large wire nuts for the connections, just make sure they are rated for use with two #6 conductors. All the wiring must have type THWN or THHN/THWN insulation.

The LB fitting goes into the shed as your pic shows, then do I use a 4x4 LB box in the shed? With a piece of 3/4 conduit connecting the two?
3/4 inch PVC conduit with thread adapter from the bottom of the new circuit breaker panel down to the 3/4 inch PVC LB fitting. 3/4 inch PVC from the LB through the wall into a 4x4 deep steel box replacing the 2x4 steel box existing. You would then pull 3 wires, black, white and green #12 THHN/THWN from the circuit breaker panel to the steel box. Splice to the existing type NM cable and don't forget to add a pigtail from the green/bare splice to the steel box. For the conduit between the LB and the steel box I would use a threaded PVC nipple. Use two locknuts in the steel box (one inside, one outside) and then cut the other end to glue into the LB. Be sure to ream out the burr on the cut end. Alternatively you can just thread a piece of the PVC conduit if you have a 3/4 inch pipe die. The threaded PVC nipple isn't absolutely kosher but there is nothing really wrong with it.
 
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Old 07-17-12, 03:18 PM
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Gotcha Furd.

One more thing though,

along with a #10 green equipment grounding conductor.

I can go from #6 to #10 for the ground in the splice box? And why?

The threaded PVC nipple isn't absolutely kosher but there is nothing really wrong with it.

What is better?





 
  #31  
Old 07-17-12, 03:55 PM
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I'd have thought that in 14 hours someone else might comment.
Sorry, Joel and Mike, I got distracted. I realize I'm coming in late with comments now. But, that said,

I like circuit breaker panels at about eye height which for me means about 60 inches. The NEC does not have a minimum height requirement, or at least didn't as of a couple of cycles back so maybe they do now.
I do too, and I thought the NEC had a guideline for that - maybe not.

In spite of my snide remark yesterday, I'm actually liking this plan much better, because I'm imagining it will better serve your needs both now and going forward.

The only change I would suggest is that I would run the larger conduit and conductors into the shed, using either an LB or something similar to the 6x6x4 PVC box you show. That way, the panel can be mounted out of the weather (no need for a NEMA 3R enclosure), is more readily accessible in any weather, and is located where I'm imagining any future loads might be added.
 
  #32  
Old 07-17-12, 04:33 PM
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I can go from #6 to #10 for the ground in the splice box? And why?
The equipment grounding conductor is only to carry fault current to trip the circuit breaker. There are rules on how to size this conductor and they are based upon the size of the circuit breaker feeding the circuit. For a circuit breaker sized between 30 and 60 amperes the equipment grounding conductor needs to be only a #10 copper. Your initial installation with the #6 equipment ground was overkill but not that many people outside the electrical field know this fact. Only with the most common circuits run with #14, #12 and #10 conductors and using 15, 20 and 30 ampere circuit breakers are required to have full size equipment grounding conductors.



I thought the NEC had a guideline for that (panel height) - maybe not.
NEC does state a maximum height, six feet seven inches for the highest operating handle of a switch or circuit breaker but as of 2002 code cycle no minimum height.

The only change I would suggest is that I would run the larger conduit and conductors into the shed, using either an LB or something similar to the 6x6x4 PVC box you show. That way, the panel can be mounted out of the weather (no need for a NEMA 3R enclosure), is more readily accessible in any weather, and is located where I'm imagining any future loads might be added.
I agree but Mike is trying to conserve money and the Square D NEMA 3R panel is actually one of the less expensive panels available.

Mike, I suggest that you pick up a copy of Wiring Simplified and also Ugly's Electrical Reference, each about $10. Wiring Simplified is usually found in the electrical aisle and not the books and magazine section of the mega-mart homecenter. Ugly's, which is a pocket sized reference is usually in the electrical aisle and sometimes near the checkout station. Wiring Simplified is MUCH easier to read than a code book and will give you reasoning on why things are done the way they are. Ugly's is very condensed charts and tables covering wire and conduit sizes and many more electrical calculations.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 07-17-12 at 07:53 PM. Reason: height correction
  #33  
Old 07-17-12, 04:46 PM
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Sorry, I forgot to answer the question concerning using the threaded PVC nipple.

To be absolutely in compliance with the electrical codes EVERYTHING used must be approved for that use. You cannot use PVC water pipe for conduit but must use "approved" PVC electrical conduit. The biggest difference between the two is wall thickness and the printing on the material. The water pipe threaded nipple has a slightly thicker wall and the electrical conduit is not really meant to be threaded. Since the nipple from the LB to the inside junction box will be totally enclosed in the wall I don't have a problem using either method but neither am I going to be inspecting it. Truth is, most inspectors would never see it either.
 
  #34  
Old 07-17-12, 05:54 PM
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Mike, I suggest that you pick up a copy of Wiring Simplified and also Ugly's Electrical Reference, each about $10. Wiring Simplified is usually found in the electrical aisle and not the books and magazine section of the mega-mart homecenter. Ugly's, which is a pocket sized reference is usually in the electrical aisle and sometimes near the checkout station. Wiring Simplified is MUCH easier to read than a code book and will give you reasoning on why things are done the way they are. Ugly's is very condensed charts and tables covering wire and conduit sizes and many more electrical calculations.
Great, on-target suggestions, Joel. I second them.

Do this, Mike, and we'll make an electrician out of you yet!
 
  #35  
Old 07-17-12, 07:25 PM
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Yeah Joel is just spending more of my money. 10 bucks here, 10 bucks there, it all adds up......LOL

The reason he wants me to put a sub out there is because he knows that's where I will be living soon, after the spouse throws me out.

... but at least I will be able to power A/C, Heat, fridge, plus have chicken eggs. Oh, and a book to read! Its all good. I will finally be at peace.

*Note to self: Need to get started on the plumbing*
 
  #36  
Old 07-17-12, 09:09 PM
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PC, thanks for the height correction. I remember it being 6 feet back in the '70s and then recently 6-1/2 feet. They must be raising it because people are growing taller these days. Or maybe it is to make the metric measurement easier.

Mike, you could send me a round trip first class plane ticket and put me up in a four-star hotel with limo service. That would make my earlier suggestions look downright cheap.
 
  #37  
Old 07-17-12, 09:42 PM
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Yeah Joel is just spending more of my money. 10 bucks here, 10 bucks there, it all adds up......LOL

The reason he wants me to put a sub out there is because he knows that's where I will be living soon, after the spouse throws me out.
Sounds reasonable...

... but at least I will be able to power A/C, Heat, fridge, plus have chicken eggs. Oh, and a book to read! Its all good. I will finally be at peace.
LOL!

I hear you! My only question is "Why do you want to put it outside?" I'm imagining being all warm and cozy in the new digs when a problem comes up, or I get a wild hair to hook up something new. And it's February. And it snowed overnight.
 
  #38  
Old 07-18-12, 06:01 AM
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Okay, Nash, let's spend some more of Mike's money. We might even be able to save him a couple of dollars.

Rather than using the 6x6x4 PVC splice box consider using a 1-inch PVC LB fitting close to where the sill plate is in the shed for bringing the #6 conductors inside. The LB is significantly less expensive than the splice box. Once inside you can then use a steel, 4-11/16 inch square deep box (cheaper than PVC) and then either conduit (PVC or flex) or type NM 6-3 cable to an indoor (NEMA 1 rated) circuit breaker panel. You still want at least a 60 ampere rated panel but higher is okay. This way you might be able to find a Square D with more breaker spaces (more is always better) and it also keeps it out of the weather which is always preferable. You DO need to mount the panel where you can easily get to it and won't pile up a bunch of junk, I mean, valuable treasures, in front of it.

You might want to check ebay (shipping may be prohibitive) and your local freecycle boards along with any other local swap & sell lists (Craig's list and the like) to see if anyone has a suitable panel you can use. Second hand is okay as long as it isn't corroded nor has gone through a fire. You might even get some more circuit breakers in the deal.
 
  #39  
Old 07-18-12, 01:54 PM
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Okay, Nash, let's spend some more of Mike's money. We might even be able to save him a couple of dollars.
Sure thing, Joel. I love spending someone else's money.

Rather than using the 6x6x4 PVC splice box consider using a 1-inch PVC LB fitting close to where the sill plate is in the shed for bringing the #6 conductors inside. The LB is significantly less expensive than the splice box. Once inside you can then use a steel, 4-11/16 inch square deep box (cheaper than PVC) and then either conduit (PVC or flex) or type NM 6-3 cable to an indoor (NEMA 1 rated) circuit breaker panel.
This (and the rest of it) is exactly what I was thinking of. Particularly the part about gaining breaker spaces.

About the inside box, Mike: If you use the steel 4-11/16 inch square deep box, be sure it has 1" KOs - making your own is a PITA, and requires a special tool. Also, you might want to consider using a second 1" PVC LB on the inside, just because PVC doesn't get dinged like steel can. And I think a 1" LB is big enough to allow you to splice onto the wires and still be within box-fill limits. Then you're already set to run a short scrap of 1" pipe up to the panel.

All you're left with then is running the small pipe and wire out to the roosting house.
 
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Old 07-18-12, 01:59 PM
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OK. I did not get to the mega mart yet to look around. But I see this and figure I can screw it to the side of a 2x4 in the shed.

Does this look OK?

Shop Square D 16-Circuit 8 Space 100 Amp Main Lug Load Center at Lowes.com
 
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