Confused...30x36 space for new main breaker panel
#1
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Confused...30x36 space for new main breaker panel
Hello to all, this is my first of many post. I'm currently installing a breaker panel inside a new basement addition. I've already installed the meter with main switch outside.
I'm confused about the code requirement that states you need a 30x36 unobstructed space around the breaker panel. My question is does the 30x36 space include the space occupied by the breaker panel. Or do I to have 36" above the top of the panel and 36" below the bottom of panel. And 30" from each side of the breaker panel. The attached photos show where I plan on putting the panel.
Another question... The ground I plan on using is "rebar" placed in the concrete wall. The rebar is attached to the rebar in the footing. Is this the only ground I need or do I need to use a rod in the ground. I have no metal gas or water pipes. See attached pic.
I look forward to your comments.
Dan
I'm confused about the code requirement that states you need a 30x36 unobstructed space around the breaker panel. My question is does the 30x36 space include the space occupied by the breaker panel. Or do I to have 36" above the top of the panel and 36" below the bottom of panel. And 30" from each side of the breaker panel. The attached photos show where I plan on putting the panel.
Another question... The ground I plan on using is "rebar" placed in the concrete wall. The rebar is attached to the rebar in the footing. Is this the only ground I need or do I need to use a rod in the ground. I have no metal gas or water pipes. See attached pic.
I look forward to your comments.
Dan
#2
Thirty six inches in front of the panel and thirty inches side to side. It does not need to be centered in the thirty inch side to side space. The analogy often use is if you can put a refrigerator box in front of it you have enough space. Maximum height of the top breaker is six feet seven inches.
#4
My question is does the 30x36 space include the space occupied by the breaker panel. Or do I to have 36" above the top of the panel and 36" below the bottom of panel. And 30" from each side of the breaker panel.
The attached photos show where I plan on putting the panel.
240.33 Vertical Position.
Enclosures for overcurrent devices shall be mounted in a vertical position unless that is shown to be impracticable. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding to the busway mounting position.
and the 30" width assumes that the panel is mounted in a vertical position. Does your permit allow you to mount this panel horizontally? If so, the 30" width should be increased to equal the side-to-side measurement of the panel enclosure in this case.Enclosures for overcurrent devices shall be mounted in a vertical position unless that is shown to be impracticable. Circuit breaker enclosures shall be permitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker is installed in accordance with 240.81. Listed busway plug-in units shall be permitted to be mounted in orientations corresponding to the busway mounting position.
Edit to add: Perhaps I misinterpreted something. Did you just lay your panel enclosure on top of the foundation to illustrate its location in the space, and you're planning to mount it vertically?
Last edited by Nashkat1; 08-27-12 at 09:16 AM.
#6
I don't think mounting that panel vertically is impractical to allow an exception to 240.33
#9
I find it odd that almost every HoH show that works with the panel....it's horizontal 90% of the time it seems.
In this case...It looks like the panel is too tall for the area above the block? Could just be the pic. And that would put the main too high I would think?
In this case...It looks like the panel is too tall for the area above the block? Could just be the pic. And that would put the main too high I would think?
#10
Horizontal mounting is allowed in Canada where many of the shows seem to originate.
If the area is not tall enough there are other code issues to deal with.
The other part of 240.33 to be concerned with is this part "Circuit breaker enclosures shall bepermitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker
is installed in accordance with 240.81." which requires UP to be ON. Half of the panel could not be used for breakers if mounted horizontally.
If the area is not tall enough there are other code issues to deal with.
The other part of 240.33 to be concerned with is this part "Circuit breaker enclosures shall bepermitted to be installed horizontally where the circuit breaker
is installed in accordance with 240.81." which requires UP to be ON. Half of the panel could not be used for breakers if mounted horizontally.
#11
I did plan on mounting it horizontally.
Mounting that panel horizontally is not feasible. What do you think of mounting it vertically in front of the wall?
#12
Pcboss....ohh...that would be a deal breaker if they mean all breakers have to be up. I doubt they meant just the main.
And I think I've seen panels where the main is up/down when the rest are side to side? I could be remembering the Navy.
I bet right now Dano is going "Say what? I thought this was going to be simple!".
And I think I've seen panels where the main is up/down when the rest are side to side? I could be remembering the Navy.
I bet right now Dano is going "Say what? I thought this was going to be simple!".
#13
Vic, most breakers operate towards the center is on. Now if the panel is turned one entire side of the panel has the breakers down and on. The top half of the panel is now unusable. All breakers need to be up = on. Mains now operate sideways to allow the main to be at the bottom.
#14
I think I've seen panels where the main is up/down when the rest are side to side?
That said, somewhere in there, IIRC, it's disallowed to mount breakers so that they are the exact oposite of that - IOW, DOWN ON and UP OFF. That's why Pcboss is saying
Originally Posted by pcboss
Half of the panel could not be used for breakers if mounted horizontally.
I bet right now Dano is going "Say what? I thought this was going to be simple!".
#17
Well...I've got one of the meter box/panel combination things mounted outside and the main is at the bottom, right in line with the branch breakers. When I first looked at it I thought I didn't have a main breaker...till I looked closely and saw "service disconnect" stamped in the cover.
#18
I've got one of the meter box/panel combination things mounted outside and the main is at the bottom, right in line with the branch breakers.
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Sure thought I would have this done by 7 this morning then go fishing.
Okay...Plans B and C
Plan B. Hang the panel vertical attached to 3/4" plywood. Part of it will hang over the block wall. I will maintaine the 6'7" height as per code. One issue is a purposed 30" closet door under the stairs. It may overlap the panel when open.
Plan C. Install the panel between the studs that support the stairs, panel would face outward into the room. My conserns here is wiill this be within code. And it reduceses the number of holes to run wire out of the box to the top only. How many 12g wires can you leagly run thru one cutouts in the panel?
See pics
Comments and suggestions are appircated,
dano
Okay...Plans B and C
Plan B. Hang the panel vertical attached to 3/4" plywood. Part of it will hang over the block wall. I will maintaine the 6'7" height as per code. One issue is a purposed 30" closet door under the stairs. It may overlap the panel when open.
Plan C. Install the panel between the studs that support the stairs, panel would face outward into the room. My conserns here is wiill this be within code. And it reduceses the number of holes to run wire out of the box to the top only. How many 12g wires can you leagly run thru one cutouts in the panel?
See pics
Comments and suggestions are appircated,
dano
#20
Plan B. Hang the panel vertical attached to 3/4" plywood. Part of it will hang over the block wall. I will maintaine the 6'7" height as per code. One issue is a purposed 30" closet door under the stairs. It may overlap the panel when open.
#21
And all of the breakers toggle - let me guess - side-to-side, right?
Dano....the open door thing doesn't matter as long as when closed you have the space requirements.
I've seen people build cabinets around panels and I think one even had a hinged picture.
#22
Sure thought I would have this done by 7 this morning then go fishing.
Plan B. Hang the panel vertical attached to 3/4" plywood. Part of it will hang over the block wall. I will maintaine the 6'7" height as per code. One issue is a purposed 30" closet door under the stairs. It may overlap the panel when open.
How are you planning to run the cables if you go with this plan? They have to be covered when you're done. See "Plan D" below.
Plan C. Install the panel between the studs that support the stairs, panel would face outward into the room. My conserns here is wiill this be within code. And it reduceses the number of holes to run wire out of the box to the top only. How many 12g wires can you leagly run thru one cutouts in the panel?
Why are you writing off the bottom of the panel for cable entry with this location? Why couldn't cables come down in the adjacent stud bays and loop up into the bottom of the panel? My concern with this location is that it will be difficult to feed from your meter and main breaker.
Plan D. Install the panel between a pair of studs framed up in front of the exterior wall. I'm imagining that that will put it close to the service entrance. With a careful design, you could bring branch circuit cables into both the top and bottom of the panel, and you could bring the service feeder cable into the top of the back. This could be finished out as a column with the panel visible, as a column with a recessed front for the panel and a hinged access, or as a cabinet with a recessed panel mount and one or two hinged doors.
Last edited by ray2047; 08-27-12 at 03:33 PM. Reason: Remove incorrect attribution.
#23
There should be plenty of knockouts in the top of the panel for the circuits. You cannot bring more than two cables into a knockout so don't plan on removing say the 2" KO and running a bunch of cables into the panel.
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Plan D. Install the panel between a pair of studs framed up in front of the exterior wall. I'm imagining that that will put it close to the service entrance. With a careful design, you could bring branch circuit cables into both the top and bottom of the panel, and you could bring the service feeder cable into the top of the back. This could be finished out as a column with the panel visible, as a column with a recessed front for the panel and a hinged access, or as a cabinet with a recessed panel mount and one or two hinged doors.
Why are you writing off the bottom of the panel for cable entry with this location? Why couldn't cables come down in the adjacent stud bays and loop up into the bottom of the panel? My concern with this location is that it will be difficult to feed from your meter and main breaker.
How are you planning to run the cables if you go with this plan? They have to be covered when you're done.
Yeah, but it ain't all that hard either. Between talking with his inspectors during the permitting process and afterward, reading Wiring Simplified, and asking questions here, he should pull through OK.
#25
Well..yeah....but I'm pretty sure my house in VA had an up/down main.....might be wrong. Like I said...more time in the Navy panels then in any house stuff.
#26
a 3 phase loadcenter cannot be flipped 180 degrees and bottom fed as far as I am aware.