Moving junction box to make room for trim around entryway

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  #1  
Old 08-30-12, 09:04 AM
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Moving junction box to make room for trim around entryway

First time poster, be gentle. As title states, I will add that I probably should have cut the hole much larger to properly affix the 2x4's with nails. I used liquid nail as you can see it in the pictures. My plan is to use the liquid nail to affix the junction box to the side of the 2x4. Is this something that is unethical and against code? If so is this something I "NEED" to change. I did read that liquid nail does turn into a non-flammable/ no toxic once it reaches a solid state. That made me feel..... better...... Thanks for the feedback in advance.
 
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  #2  
Old 08-30-12, 09:07 AM
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I suppose I should have posted this in the electrical A/C D/C. Move please if need be.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:24 AM
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Welcome to the forums

An old work box would have been the right choice here, I'm not sure if adhesive like you're planning is allowed.

Also, I will move your thread and leave a short duration link in its place.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:31 AM
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Thank you sir. Hopefully someone will chime in and let me know if I'm way off here. ; )
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:35 AM
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Yeah, hang tight - we have guys here who know the code off the top of their head.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:35 AM
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After looking at a pic of an old work box, it appears this allows for securing through the drywall. Would this an appropriate assumption? rookie question I know but what better place to learn then here.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:38 AM
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Yep, exactly - it attaches to the drywall instead of the structure.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 09:39 AM
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You don't need the 2X4s and you now have the hole too large but you still may be able to use an old work box as Mitch suggested. The old work box has ears that rotate up behind the Sheetrock after insertion and clamp it in place

 
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Old 08-30-12, 10:19 AM
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My plan is to use the liquid nail to affix the junction box to the side of the 2x4.
A better plan would be to use an old-work box. The thing is, those are inserted from the front into a hole cut to receive them, in finished drywall.

Hmmmm... Can you kill the power, remove the switch and the cables from the existing box, splice the neutral wires and the ground wires back together, tighten a small wire nut onto each of the two hot wires, and ease the cables back into the wall long enough to finish the drywall patch? Then you can mark and cut the opening for the new old-work box just to the left of the new framing, separate the cables and ease them into the new box as you fit it into the wall, secure the box and re-make the switch.

Note: As Ray said, you don't need those 2x4s to hold the box. If you can take one or both out, fine. One might be helpful for attaching the drywall patch, but I'm imagining that a "hot patch" will work better.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 10:54 AM
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These are all great suggestions. My initial thought, after realizing my hole wasn't big enough to use nails to secure to 2x4, was to simply apply the liquid nail to the side of the box as previously mentioned, once dried up rotate my piece of drywall as it will line up close enough to the new location of the box, then patch it up. This seems more practical due to my current situation and based on what you see in the pictures. Now if I would have know about the old work box previously I'm still not sure if I would have had much success. Reason being is, one I still would have had to take the original box out thus doing so I would have needed to cut a hole to expose enough area to take the nails out and one of the staples (which I was able to remove one from the above wire) to create enough play in the wires to be able to move the switch to the relocated area. And now that I have the 2x4's to secure the drywall all I'd have to do on the other side is make some small pieces of backing to secure the drywall and I'm ready to patch. But, where I run into issues with this method, is it legal to use the liquid nail with the junction box....???
 
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Old 08-30-12, 12:08 PM
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is it legal to use the liquid nail with the junction box....???
Doubtful, but others may differ. The NEC seldom speaks to methods. It speaks to outcomes instead, as in "all device boxes shall be securely and permanently mounted to the building structure, including... using approved methods."

If you had asked us earlier, we could have told you how to remove the existing switch box and the staple without enlarging the opening. That's a task many of us have faced.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 12:15 PM
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Nash: In addition to being tacked to the wood with adhesive, the wood is glued to another piece of wood which is glued to the stud - can that pass muster? I can't see the sum total qualifying as "securely ... mounted to the building structure."
 
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Old 08-30-12, 12:36 PM
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"If you had asked us earlier, we could have told you how to remove the existing switch box and the staple without enlarging the opening. That's a task many of us have faced."

I watched a video of a guy doing it this way (minus the liquid nail) so I went for it but yeah I suppose I should have jumped on here first to get ideas. Now I know better.
"Nash: In addition to being tacked to the wood with adhesive, the wood is glued to another piece of wood which is glued to the stud - can that pass muster? I can't see the sum total qualifying as "securely ... mounted to the building structure."

This isn't just any glue, it's liquid nail. : )

I have no doubts it will hold, that's not a concern for me.
 
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Old 08-30-12, 12:43 PM
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Whether it will hold is not all that important, it's whether it stands up to code.

And I know you used liquid nails, it's just easier to type glue
 
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Old 08-30-12, 12:47 PM
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Nash: In addition to being tacked to the wood with adhesive, the wood is glued to another piece of wood which is glued to the stud - can that pass muster? I can't see the sum total qualifying as "securely ... mounted to the building structure."
No. As I said earlier, "Doubtful."
 
  #16  
Old 08-30-12, 09:26 PM
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You can remove the box you have and use something called a Smartbox. It will have screws inside the box that will secure to the wood and hold the box.

SMART BOX - The Revolutionary Non-Metallic Device Box
 
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Old 08-30-12, 10:10 PM
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And while your at it use three inch Sheetrock screws driven at a forty five degree angle to hold the first block to the stud then more three inch screws to hold the second block to the first.
 
  #18  
Old 08-31-12, 08:42 AM
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pcboss that is exactly what I did but I made my own holes and drilled around a 45 degree angle into the first 2x4.

ray2047 this is also exactly what I did. I new the liquid nail would be fine but I went ahead and did what you suggested. Peace of mind I suppose. Here is the almost finished relocation. Yes I know I have to do some serious sanding but the brunt of it is finished.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 09:18 AM
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Here is the almost finished relocation.
That's looking pretty good!

One question: In your picture, is the switch not yet mounted?
 
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Old 08-31-12, 10:21 AM
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The switch is not mounted yet. Letting the drywall dry first and then sand then I'll mount it. Reason, did I do something wrong??? I'm a rookie and I'm genuinely concerned. Looking at the pic I see, it does look off centered doesn't. HAHA it's the angle of the picture. Here is a little better angle to see it not mounted.
 
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  #21  
Old 08-31-12, 10:25 AM
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Damn that angle makes the box look crooked. I assure you it is not.
 
  #22  
Old 08-31-12, 10:30 AM
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Damn that angle makes the box look crooked. I assure you it is not.
In reality, most boxes aren't 100% plumb. That's why the holes in device yokes are slots.

There appears to be a wider gap under the box than I would be comfortable leaving.
 
  #23  
Old 08-31-12, 10:44 AM
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The NEC allows a 1/8" gap maximum. any gap greater than that needs to be patched or filled.
 
  #24  
Old 08-31-12, 10:47 AM
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Damn I wish I new all of your terminology. I'll figure it by process of elimination. If you are referring to the box and plumb meaning flush with the drywall surface then no, it sets off the drywall about a quarter inch. This is how it was when I removed it so I simply replaced the same. This is my philosophy with most if I am unsure, replace how you found it.

And the yokes you are referring to the two holes on the top and bottom off the switch? Not really sure what those are used for other then creating tension when screwing in the switch to the box.
 
  #25  
Old 08-31-12, 10:51 AM
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Ok I understand now. Yeah I think I may be over and 8th on the bottom, otherwise I believe I'm in good shape on other sides. So I can add some additional spackle to the open area and be good???
 
  #26  
Old 08-31-12, 10:54 AM
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By the way I truly do appreciate all the help you guys and gals have provided. I love home renovation. I am a novice currently as you could tell but learning so much being a home owner and I thank everyone here.
 
  #27  
Old 08-31-12, 10:57 AM
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It does need to be flush with the edge of the drywall - the inside the room edge of the drywall - 1/4" recess is too much.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 11:20 AM
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The box can setback up to a 1/4" in a finish like drywall. However, the mounting will not be as secure as when the box is closer to the face of the wall. This is more important on receptacles where you need to push against the strap or yoke to insert the plug.

If the box protudes from the face of the wall the coverplate may not cover the gap. You could back the screws out and push the box flush and re-do the screws.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 11:23 AM
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Thanks for the clarification, pcboss - I thought the recess restriction was something less than 1/4".
 
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Old 08-31-12, 01:18 PM
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I think I'm good where it's at. Everything was flush before the move and now everything is pretty close to the same minus the location so I'm confident it will go back together just fine.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 01:23 PM
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And the yokes you are referring to the two holes on the top and bottom off the switch?
The yoke is the metal strap with the two mounting holes in it.
 
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Old 08-31-12, 02:06 PM
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Mitch, the allowable recess is 1/4" in non-combustible finishes. If combustible the box must be flush or protrude from the finish.
 
  #33  
Old 09-04-12, 07:47 AM
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So here is the switch relocated, painted and trim is up. I also included a picture for why I needed to move the switch in the first place. The least I could do is show you my over-all project for the help you guys gave me. The picture of the over-all molding I did on both sides. Very happy with the outcome. Hope you like.
 
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Old 09-04-12, 08:02 AM
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Thanks for sharing and the feedback. Looks good.
 
  #35  
Old 09-04-12, 08:37 AM
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That not only looks good, it looks like it's always been there. Thanks for showing us how it turned out.
 
  #36  
Old 09-04-12, 09:20 AM
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OK - this is a really important electrical comment (LOL)

Really beautiful colors in that house!
 
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