Is 60 amp enough / install idea ok?

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  #1  
Old 09-28-12, 05:57 PM
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Question Is 60 amp enough / install idea ok?

Install location, Lower Delaware.
I trying to install a 60 amp sub panel ?(probably with a main breaker?) in my shop/shed. [12x20]
I read you gota have a 4 wire line; 2 hot, 1 common, 1 bare ground if youre running a separate line to a detached building off my main box outside??

Heres me plan:
60 amp double pole breaker in main box
Wire for 60a. 6-3 awg UF (copper) in conduit at 18
A separate Subpanel ground bus to 8 rod using #10 awg bare wire
100 amp rated breaker box with 10 or 12 spaces [not sure if Im
going with a main breaker in the sub ??]
4- 12-2 circuits
2- 14-2 circuits
Is there a limit on how many circuits you can have on the sub panel?

Mostly Ill use only one machine at a time used with either the AC or a
heater on, a dust collector, and lighting of course.
My best guess for is maybe 40-45 peak amps at one time:
2 heaters [might only need one for comfort level]
Buffer, lathe, band saw, or air compressor [one at a time]
Dust collector
Freezer
And Im wondering if that would be adequate for this install?
Please note my overview diagram:
http://bestbuy2day.com/temp/shed-electric.jpg

I've installed new breakers & lines for outlets off of my existing 100 amp
sub panel in my home. This is the main panel for the whole mobile.
[which seems to be really just a 100 amp sub]
I currently just dont feel I have enough insight past the breakers of my 100a. sub.

The direct straight line distance from outside main box to shed: 30 feet.
This would be under the mobile. (and ya cant run a trencher under that)
The length/run of the wire like in diagram will be about 55-60 feet.
I was wondering if I use rigid 1 conduit (is that adequate?) off main box down to 18 below dirt then horizontal 4 feet, and then come up underneath mobile to the 2 x 6 joists, can I then just stop condo and string the wire/conductor(s) openly attached to underside of mobile? (as we all know 6-3 is one flat jacket) Then back into condo on other side, back down 18 below surface, and condo all way to sub?
Also, is it ok to run a 6-3 UF inside conduit?
Some guy asked me this in reference to heat.
Now Im wondering.

Im guessing my sub would be a 100 amp box with a main breaker with 10 spaces.
As per the diagram You can see my main loads of use wanted/needed. Mostly only one machine at a time used with either the AC or a heater on, a dust collector, and lighting of course.

All the circuits in the shop will be 12-2/20a. lines. 1 for AC, 1 line down each side of shed w/ 2-3 sets outlets along each. 1 line to work bench w/3 to 6 sets outlets there.
Except for maybe the lights [one or two 15 a. circuit]
4 20a. circuits
1 to 2 15a. circuits
I have a general diagram of the layout idea to the shed:
http://bestbuy2day.com/temp/shed-electric.jpg


So what do you folks think?
Anything Im over looking?
 
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  #2  
Old 09-28-12, 07:17 PM
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I read you gota have a 4 wire line; 2 hot, 1 common, 1 bare ground
Not common neutral. Not bare ground in conduit.

I was wondering if I use rigid 1 conduit (is that adequate?) off main box down to 18 below dirt then horizontal 4 feet, and then come up underneath mobile to the 2 x 6 joists,
You don't need rigid. Schedule 40 PVC would be fine.

Also, is it ok to run a 6-3 UF inside conduit?
Not a code violation but not recommended. A lot harder to pull.
 
  #3  
Old 09-28-12, 08:52 PM
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Welcome to the forums!

To add to what Ray said,
2 hot, 1 common, 1 bare ground if youre running a separate line to a detached building off my main box outside??
a bare ground is only allowed in a cable. You should run individual conductors in a continuous conduit run for this installation. That would require a #10 green insulated ground as part of the pull.

A separate Subpanel ground bus to 8 rod using #10 awg bare wire
6AWG is the minimum size for the new GEC.

Is there a limit on how many circuits you can have on the sub panel?
No. The total demand is the determining factor.

Im wondering if that would be adequate for this install?
To determine if the install will be adequate to supply the sum of those loads, do a load calculation.

I was wondering if I use rigid 1 conduit (is that adequate?) off main box down to 18 below dirt then horizontal 4 feet, and then come up underneath mobile to the 2 x 6 joists, can I then just stop condo and string the wire/conductor(s) openly attached to underside of mobile? (as we all know 6-3 is one flat jacket) Then back into condo on other side, back down 18 below surface, and condo all way to sub?
1-1/4" conduit is a nice size for this job. I would run the conduit all the way, with a pull box mounted to the underside of the mobile home. And I would run Schedule 40 PVC, not rigid.
 
  #4  
Old 09-28-12, 11:16 PM
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Cool

Thank you gentlemen for your quick responses.

My oversight in statement, I thought the gray PVC was made by rigid..
Thats what I meant. sch 40 1-1/4"

Ok, please, let me rephrase= 1 red(hot), 1 black(hot), 1 white(neutral), 1 green(grnd) conductors. All insulated.
You guys know the 6-3 uf doesnt have a bare wire. Are you guys just busting my chops on that badly stated reference to the geen ground wire. I can take it, go ahead...

Thats actual one of my biggest questions the wire types used.
For instance, the separated green bus ground, coming off the sub to the ground rods; bare or not?
Does it even matter for code? [And i think Nash, your saying its gotta be 6awg not 10awg.]
If you guys talk me out of the 6-3 uf, to go with #6 awg THWN wouldnt that cost even more. And is that the right type wire ? or was it TW

why is pulling one 4 conductor line all twined together (6-3 uf) harder then 4 separate 6 awg conductors?
Thats also why I was considering skipping the middle under the mobile. As long as it meets code that is.
That way Id only have to pull about 13 one side and 20 on the other side. Would cut down pull time. Once I measured out for sure, start from middle with lets say 60 and fish and pull on each end. Find the happy medium, secure in middle first then tidy up both ends.
But code is a factor for me under the mobile. I dont know what it is. One guy in a box store
Said he thinks,.. thinks, the new code for under these mobiles is uf now instead of romex.
Who knows?

Nash. Im not sure about a pull box.
If i have to go PVC all the way, cant i just use CANTEX 1 1/4-in Schedule 40 PVC Cap
At each right angle corner under the mobile.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3811[/ATTACH]



In which case I could fish from one side out to main and pull, then fish from 1st cap to the 2nd and pull, once I complete the underneath then fish from shop to the 2nd cap and pull to shop floor plate?
Or do you have even a better/easer plan??


6AWG is the minimum size for the new GEC
Whats a GEC ? / ground electrical connector?

All information & suggestions appreciated.
 
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Old 09-29-12, 05:54 AM
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why is pulling one 4 conductor line all twined together (6-3 uf) harder then 4 separate 6 awg conductors?
Wire in UF isn't twisted together so maybe you mean mobile home cable.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 09-29-12 at 09:57 AM.
  #6  
Old 09-29-12, 07:45 AM
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The outer coating of the UF cable makes it harder to bend.

GEC, the conductor run to the ground rods or electrodes. Number 6 is needed to the rods. You cannot go smaller. The EGC, equipment grounding conductor run in the feeder can be a #10.
 
  #7  
Old 09-29-12, 08:01 AM
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6-3 UF is some high $$ stuff. I don't understand why you would want to pay premium for a direct burial cable and then put it in conduit too. Although I am not a big UF fan, I think this is one instance where I would use the direct burial UF cable direct buried and not in conduit. You are just talking 11 feet here. That being said, conduit would be required for protection where the cable enters and emerges from the earth (at each end of the run), but the horizontal run underground would have no conduit. You are also running about 15 feet under the mobile and in my opinion that would need to be UF or individual THWN conductors in conduit. The way I see it, you can run UF the entire distance and not need a splice box at all.

60 amp double pole breaker in main box
Wire for 60a. 6-3 awg UF (copper) in conduit at 18
A separate Subpanel ground bus to 8 rod using #10 awg bare wire
100 amp rated breaker box with 10 or 12 spaces [not sure if Im
going with a main breaker in the sub ??]
4- 12-2 circuits
2- 14-2 circuits
Is there a limit on how many circuits you can have on the sub panel?
I would always use a main breaker in the remote subpanel as a disconnect.
 
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Old 09-29-12, 08:39 AM
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You also need to answer the question if you are really talking a bout UF cable because you described it as twisted and it isn't. It is flat with a gray outer sheath. This is UF cable:
 
  #9  
Old 09-29-12, 12:13 PM
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Yes ray, i know just what it is, It's flat a little less then 1-1/4 inchs in width (i've had it in my hands)

I used the word twined... maybe banded, infused, flat lined, hermetically encased, would have been better. lol....
 

Last edited by Shadeladie; 09-29-12 at 01:27 PM. Reason: Unnecessary comments removed
  #10  
Old 09-29-12, 01:29 PM
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Mr Mike, you can always hire an electrician to answer your questions instead of looking for free advice here.
 
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Old 09-29-12, 01:41 PM
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Red face Git-er Done

Thank you pcboss, nash and c.joe, I appreciate the inputs; yes you too ray,,

c.joe you make some good points; I'll probably do the main breaker on sub. But Im not digging down 24, only 18 by hand. In which case my understanding is, the UF must then be in PVC horizontally too. Of course if I knew somebody that had a trencher to loan; Id dig 24 on the 17 side, drop it in, and be done with it.
But Id have to rent one out.
So it looks like Im going to be digging 12 long 19 deep trench 4 wide. (oh the pain of it all...!)

My wire pricing quoted:
6-3 UF - $2.68 ft. x 60 = $160.8
#6 THWN - $0.65 ft x 240= $156
So both are going to cost me almost the same.
It seems to me after speaking with a local electrical shop (he knew some code standards for this area)
I can skip the uf in conduit under the home. And just fasten it to the joist.
Thats within code here.

So Im faced with how hard could it be to pull 6-3 UF 17 with 2 elbows one way and 13 with 2 elbows on the other side. Why ask this to myself?
Because you folks have now brought to my attention the different style casing and the not as bendable UF problem I didnt foresee coming. But at the same time its going to cost more with all pvc and pull time with the more pliable #6awg THWN.
Looking at this UF originally, I figured the 1-1/4 pvc would make the pull easier because there was a lot of space left in the pvc to work with. Maybe some lube on the wire will work better? Like maybe dish soap. [what do you think ray; dish soap?]

This is a tough choice .

Ahh !!! the pros and cons of any project undertaken..
 

Last edited by Mr. Mike; 09-29-12 at 04:11 PM. Reason: missed a word
  #12  
Old 09-29-12, 03:35 PM
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Like maybe dish soap.
Not dish soap, use wire lube.

.................
 

Last edited by pcboss; 09-29-12 at 03:49 PM. Reason: clarity.
  #13  
Old 09-29-12, 04:06 PM
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wow, thanks ray.....
I didn't know they had something like that.

Or are you just pulling my cable.......

I'm definitely gonna need some of that stuff.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]3836[/ATTACH]
 
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Old 10-14-12, 11:43 AM
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Question I'm stumped.

Point of entry was only feasible on one wall.

Load center on different wall.
(L SHAPED path: 2.5' left to corner, then 2' more on that wall, then about 1.5' up into box)

My issue seems to be no possible way to get 1-1/4" sch 40 around
a 90 degree corner. Not to mention the 6-3 UF inside it.
So now that I've come up thru the bottom wall plate with 6-3 uf wire in pvc, and I am technically inside a wall about 2' up from the floor plate [well it will be a wall once I wire the rest of the walls, & install insulation and then paneling]. Does the wire have to stay in conduit? I ask this because it doesn't seem possible to do that? I'm also looking at drilling 1-3/4" holes thru wall studs and that doesn't seem to be a great idea for the stability of the wall structure. With the corner turn; there seems no way I'm going to be able to get a 90 degree elbow thru the stud unless the outside wall sheathing wasn't there. So I'm stumped. Now once I get to the break box wall I can go back into pvc and enter the bottom of box correctly.

Any ideas/suggestions guys?
 
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Old 10-14-12, 12:47 PM
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The UF can be run in the wall without conduit. You will need a bushing or fitting for a smooth exit from the conduit.
 
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Old 10-14-12, 02:47 PM
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Does the wire have to stay in conduit?
Not if it's inside the wall. As pcboss said,
Originally Posted by pcboss
You will need a bushing or fitting for a smooth exit from the conduit.
Do you have enough cable to reach the subpanel without splicing?

once I get to the break box wall I can go back into pvc and enter the bottom of box correctly.
Is the can for your subpanel not made to allow the feed to enter through the back, directly from the wall?
 
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Old 10-14-12, 04:54 PM
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Lightbulb

oh yeah, I got plenty of cable to reach box with about 5' left over.
No splicing required. I measured this out about 3 times before I
bought that wire. (with wigle room as noted)

Box has the usual ports: back, side, top, bottom.
But I already made my entrence. Just didn't antisapate how
routing the cable over to the breaker box wall was not going
to work with 1-1/4" pvc.

With all your help,... I think I got an idea. (now that I know I can forgo conduit) because I am concerned with the wire being covered as best as possible. [i'm into safety before short cuts]

I'll put on a bushing where I'm at now. (like pc said) so I can make the hard left turn. then 7 inches away I hit my first stud, so I drill about three 1/4" holes in a line length wise of the studs so the flat cable stands height wise.
Then cut a piece of pvc to fit real snug between that stud and the next, making sure the drilled holes line up, then slide wire throught studs & conduit.[much better for stud strenght]
At the cornor where the wire is coming out of the 2nd stud I make a another hard left, this time I use a sch 40 "white" 90 degree elbow (a very, very tight cornor, nothing else will fit) (it fits nice and snug) right back into a straight place sch 40 gray on the other side and then up to the box.

Now,.. as for the 2 stud exposures that most everybody is going to say that can be a problem with just one nail; and I agree.
So I knotch out 3/16" deep in the 2x4's wall face for some 1-1/4" wide flat metal which I tack flush with finishing nails so anybody attempting to drive a nail into that stud form inside hits metal on those stud spots. now from the outside the wire is aprox 3-1/8" from the sheathing, I think thats a long shot to hit a spot thats only 1-1/4"h x 1-1/2"w on 2 different 2x4's in 2 different spots. it's a long shot to say the least.

So what do you think.....?

Good idea huh ?

Yes, a bit micky mouse and a bit time consuming, but I feel better safe wise.
 
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Old 10-14-12, 06:08 PM
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Yes ray, i know just what it is, It's flat a little less then 1-1/4 inchs in width (i've had it in my hands)
If its true, that 6-3 UF is that wide, 1.25" PVC might be to narrow. You might have to derate, or go bigger.
 
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Old 10-14-12, 06:50 PM
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If you drill the holes in the middle of the width of the stud you do not need the nail plates.

White PVC is not listed for electrical use and the bend radius is too small.
 
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Old 10-14-12, 08:02 PM
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Question

not following the radius point.

the hard L shape turn is bad?
I just made two hard "L" turns; one on the way down in mud to 24" "L"
then over to shop, then another "L" back up out of the mud into the shop.

so i'm not following the radius thing.

and if no conduit is needed in wall, whats wrong with the
white 90 thats not rated? at least thats some added protection? right??

you see what I'm saying? I'm not trying to argue, just reasoning out the thought behine the statement.
 
  #21  
Old 10-14-12, 09:12 PM
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You should not have buried any of the L fittings. They need to remain accessible like a junction box.

Cables have a bend radius restriction so the insulation does not get damaged.
 
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Old 10-14-12, 09:34 PM
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Question

sir, I don't think we're on the same page here. forget L shape "fiting" for a second.

lets speak about what do you put at the end of the PVC that is down
24" into the ground with 6-3 UF inside it.
that is now gonna go horizonal under ground.
 
  #23  
Old 10-15-12, 06:50 AM
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You use a sweep ell.



But of course you don't need to put UF in conduit once it is in the ground.
 
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Old 10-15-12, 07:21 AM
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Unhappy


well it's a good thing I didn't fill that trench yet.

U know I was going to use sweeps (i call those elbows) on the two up starts but then i figured why bother... seemed like over kill.

Knew nothing of radius limits. never even heard that one before.

whelp, I guess I'm back to playing in the dirt/mud once more.
it could be worse.

Man I'm glad I didn't fill those trenches in yet.
 
  #25  
Old 10-20-12, 08:05 PM
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the sub panel

started the wiring for the sub.

comments? issues? suggestions?

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  #26  
Old 10-20-12, 11:08 PM
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That "back fed" circuit breaker needs to have a clamp installed to hold it in the panel independent of the cover.

Are you certain the two "neutral" buses are not internally connected? I would prefer that you remove the bonding screw from the right hand bus and use only the added equipment grounding bus rather than re-purpose the right hand neutral bus.

Also, there is no need for all the extra wire from the supply piled up in the bottom of the box.

Is that bare wire going to a ground rod? Is it a #6 minimum? While from an electrical standpoint it doesn't need to be #6 from a mechanical point anything less than a #6 needs additional physical protection, that is, conduit.
 
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Old 10-21-12, 12:52 AM
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Main Breaker Retainer kit/clamp,... yep it's there.

This is a GE box. this is what they concider a "main breaker 100 amp load center"
The 2 normal neutral buses are not how they designed it.
notice the green screw & white tag. (please see close up pic) even the plactic embossed sez ground bus only. They split the box, no conection to right & left bus bars. So I figured, I'm gonna ground the box too; by using the seperate grd. bus to the right.

yes sir, thats #6 bare off the top of the main grd. bus going to 8 ft. ground rod.

Left bus is neutral only.

Yea, that wire at the bottom did seem a bit to excessive to me too.
I was trying to get some slack for the "just in case" deal.....That 6-3 uf is a real mother to deal with while encased in that grey outer casing.

thank you for your input furd.

Ps.
now that I clarified the grd. bus set-up for this style box; do you still have issue with the bond (jumper) to the sep. grd. bus so that the box is
grounded too ?

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Last edited by Mr. Mike; 10-21-12 at 01:40 AM. Reason: rewrite
  #28  
Old 10-21-12, 06:36 AM
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If the factory installed ground bar on the right is indeed a ground bar only, it should be bonded to the box and would not require the auxilliary ground bar field installed nor the link you connected them with. That being said, I see no harm in the auxilliary bar being there.
 
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Old 10-21-12, 11:48 AM
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With the further information I agree with CasualJoe.
 
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Old 10-22-12, 01:32 PM
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overhauled it a bit

Oh I see your point guys, about why give the customer an extra
(what looks to be ) unneeded "auxilliary ground bar field".
and now that you folks are saying it would be factory bonded to
box anyway,.. so my jump would be redudent.

I had that thought too.. ( why 2 ground bars)

Obviousely not being in the field....

I figured.... maybe some local codes will not let a grd. bus in the main
part of the box and it must be sep. to past inspt. ??

But anyway, heres a pic of the spec. set-up on the cover panel.
I myself would not have wasted money giving folks something
unnessary if it were my company. Any business man knows thats fool headed.

But appearently they did so for some reason. GE isn't a poor company.

listening to u guys, I took an even closer look!
And the bond screw for the neutral bus is not in place; and the
green screw for the bond is in place. (something u guys yourselves, would have noted quickly)
sorry for the delayed infomation.

Thanks for double checking my work gentilmen.

I feel u guys have definetly got me to improve my 1st sub panel install.

I cleaned it up a bit like you suggested.

You guys like it better now? [only one temp circuit installed so far]

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  #31  
Old 10-22-12, 01:52 PM
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It looks a lot cleaner now. I guess you're keeping the ground bar you added.
 
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Old 10-22-12, 03:06 PM
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I do not recommend yellow 77 for a pulling lubricant. It was used at my work for a time and just about everywhere it was used it's now turned into some kind of super adhesive and we can't pull the cables out of the conduit anymore.
 
  #33  
Old 10-22-12, 05:22 PM
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nash:
I figured since it's inmaterial why not just leave it.

Can't hurt, ground is GOOD, ..... right.

Twx:
I didn't use any lube for the pull from the meter side.
I measured then cut, then slide the 14' of pvc pieces on
the line one piece at a time for a dry run, then lossen them,
then glued em and fit em back together.

the other side of the job was direct burial.

But if I had a do it again,.... I might do the #6 THWN in pvc

I know,... you guys tried to warn me about that in the begining.
 
  #34  
Old 10-23-12, 11:36 AM
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I didn't use any lube for the pull from the meter side. I measured then cut, then slide the 14' of pvc pieces on the line one piece at a time for a dry run, then lossen them, then glued em and fit em back together.
I never do it that way, because I don't want to risk getting any glue inside the pipe with the wires already there and sticking them to the pipe. FWIW. Instead, I complete the conduit run, with the bell ends pointing toward the wire-feeding end and pull the conductors in after the glue has set - 10 mins or so.

Originally Posted by T-W-X
I do not recommend yellow 77 for a pulling lubricant. It was used at my work for a time and just about everywhere it was used it's now turned into some kind of super adhesive and we can't pull the cables out of the conduit anymore.
I agree. I've had to do it, and I've done it, sometimes years after the original pull. It was not easy and didn't go fast! I recommend and use the clear stuff instead.
 
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