14-3 With GFI's

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  #1  
Old 10-24-12, 03:31 PM
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14-3 With GFI's

Hi I'm starting my Christmas Light Setup for this year I need 8 hot runs and I want to know if it's possible to run 14-3 2 hot legs into 2 GFI and share the netrual wire?

If that is Not possible could I 8 runs of 14-2 to 8 GFI Then run 14-3 to a noraml recp. Where the one hot leg would control the top recp outlet and the second hot leg would control the bottom leg. Not sure on the netrual wire?

Anyway thanks for your help and or advise, Mike
 
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  #2  
Old 10-24-12, 03:42 PM
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You will need to keep the neutrals separate after the GFI. If you do not the GFI will see an imbalance of current.
 

Last edited by pcboss; 10-24-12 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 10-24-12, 04:47 PM
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I want to know if it's possible to run 14-3 2 hot legs into 2 GFI and share the netrual wire?
Yes. So long as you pigtail the neutral so that each GFCI has a separate lead from the home-run neutral, they should function properly.
 
  #4  
Old 10-25-12, 06:36 AM
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Thanks Everyone for the reply, just so I have this down, I made a drawing of what I think the wire runs would look like. Please advise if I have it correct or not.

Lastly, while reseaching I got a bit confused on how to wire this setup in the breaker box. I'm not sure if I'm to use 8 single breakers for each hot leg or 4 tandom breakers or even 4 double pole breakers. Could someone advise on this as well.

Again, thanks very much for the help,

Mike
 
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Old 10-25-12, 06:57 AM
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I'm to use 8 single breakers for each hot leg or 4 tandom breakers or even 4 double pole breakers. Could someone advise on this as well
8 full-size single breakers, with the pair for each cable joined with a handle tie, would be my preferred choice.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 08:27 AM
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If the 14-3 leaves the panel you will need to use a 2 pole breaker or two single poles with an approved handle tie.

Your area may require AFCI protection depending on the code cycle and the area the receptacles will be located in. This would rule out the use of the xx-3 cable.
 
  #7  
Old 10-25-12, 11:27 AM
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Thanks Everyone,
Well a lot of information now, Since I only have 7 spaces left in my panel I suppose I will get a tandom for a couple other lines to make room for the 4 double pole breakers.

Last question I hope , if one GFI Trips will all the others trip as well ? Or just the two that share the netrual wire. or are they all still seperated?

Spring time comes a sub panel is in order because I'm gonna need another setup just like this one for next years christmas show More LOR Controllers

Thanks again you guys are a great help!!!
Mike
 
  #8  
Old 10-25-12, 12:01 PM
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I will get a tandom for a couple other lines to make room for the 4 double pole breakers.
You don't need, and in fact shouldn't have, 2-pole breakers protecting these circuits. You are not wiring four 240V circuits. You are wiring eight 120V circuits. They should be protected by eight single-pole breakers. Because you are using 14-3/G cable, the breakers need to be 15A.

Those eight breakers need to be set in the panel, and wired, in vertical pairs, because you are using 14-3/G cable to create four multi-wire branch circuits. The code requires that the overcurrent protection for a MWBC have simultaneous disconnect. Connect the handles of each pair with an approved handle tie to create that. The code does not require that the protection have simultaneous trip, which is what the 2-pole breakers would add.

if one GFI Trips will all the others trip as well ? Or just the two that share the netrual wire. or are they all still seperated?
By using the single-pole breakers, you are allowing each circuit to trip on its own, so you will know where the problem is, and, by using the handle ties, you are setting it up so that to go work on that circuit you have to turn off both of the circuits that share one neutral.

I suggested full-size breakers because the two hot wires in each set need to be tied to the two separate legs of your service, and that's a given when you use any two vertically adjacent breakers. If you are confident that you can tell which leg each breaker is connected to, you could use 15A tandem breakers for the protection.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 12:02 PM
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Not all panels can use a tandem breaker.
 
  #10  
Old 10-25-12, 12:06 PM
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Not all panels can use a tandem breaker.
Oops! True. The label inside the door of your panel should list the breakers that can be installed in it.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 12:37 PM
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Thanks, By the way I have a QO 200 Amp panel so tamdoms can be used in this panel.

Getting closer... Ok I will Use single breakers :-) However you state I need to place these breakers accross from each other Red wire on one side and Black on the other. If this is the case how can you hook the two breakers together by the handles. These ties that I saw look like they fit breakers that are top and bottom located? Maybe I'm wrong...

Also all the tandoms I saw look like they fit on one leg side, may be wrong again on this. I guess they work like double poles which go to both legs? I'm sure I will be able to tell the differance for these outlets because they are only used for Christmas Lights but I like the idea if one breaker trips the other outlet will shut off as well at least if the breaker trips...

Again thanks for setting me on the right path...

Mike
 
  #12  
Old 10-25-12, 02:05 PM
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The fact that you have a 200 amp panel does not mean that you can use tandems. The label needs to say that they can be used in the panel.

A tandem QO breaker only hits one hot leg of the panel.

For a handle tie to work the breakers need to be above and below each other.
 
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Old 10-25-12, 04:16 PM
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you state I need to place these breakers accross from each other Red wire on one side and Black on the other. If this is the case how can you hook the two breakers together by the handles. These ties that I saw look like they fit breakers that are top and bottom located? Maybe I'm wrong...
No, you're right. That's why I said
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
Those eight breakers need to be set in the panel, and wired, in vertical pairs.
Also all the tandoms I saw look like they fit on one leg side, may be wrong again on this. I guess they work like double poles which go to both legs? I'm sure I will be able to tell the differance for these outlets because they are only used for Christmas Lights but I like the idea if one breaker trips the other outlet will shut off as well at least if the breaker trips...
In your panel, from top to bottom, the breakers in the top two full-height spaces are connected to Leg A, the next two down to Leg B, The next two down to Leg A again, and so on all the way down. The only way to correctly wire a MWBC (or a 240V circuit) with tandem breakers is to install four of them in two full-height spaces and wire to the middle two.

If you don't quite get that, even after looking at the hot buses in your panel, just stick with the full-height breakers. And I would NOT use 2-pole breakers for this. I'd want each of the eight 120V circuits to trip when, as and if it needed to, without involving another circuit.
 
  #14  
Old 10-26-12, 06:03 AM
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Got it... I understand much better now, thanks for that details... I'll be working on this project over the weekend since the weather is supposed to be pretty good here for October. I will use the full size breakers for the christmas lights but will need one tandem breaker to free up one space in the panel for those 8 full size breakers.

Once again thanks very much for all your help!!!

Mike
 
  #15  
Old 10-26-12, 06:51 AM
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Again, your panel may not be listed for use with tandems. If you post the panel model number someone can tell if the panel can use tandems.
 
  #16  
Old 10-26-12, 09:17 AM
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Oh yeah, forgot about that, I will check, However in case my panel wont work, could I just bug to hots together and share a breaker? For example I have a breaker for my garage door opener and nothing else on that and I have a breaker for my garage refrigerator. Seems to me even if both were running at the same time it shoudn't even be close to 20amps? Just a thought.

One last question I'm told you cant run romex in conduit outside, I guess because the paper in the wire, however what if you take the wire out of the cable and just run the black and White and Red Wires? The reason I ask is because I have 250' of 14-3 romex and if I could run just the wires it would work for me without buying more wire.

Thanks, Mike
 
  #17  
Old 10-26-12, 11:53 AM
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The wire in NM-b is not marked or rated to be used outside of the sheath.
 
  #18  
Old 10-26-12, 11:58 AM
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I'm told you cant run romex in conduit outside, I guess because the paper in the wire, however what if you take the wire out of the cable and just run the black and White and Red Wires?
No, sorry. The wires that are inside Romex[SUP]TM[/SUP], or any other sheathed cable, are not rated for use outside that cable. The cable sheathing serves as part of their protection and rating.

All wires installed in conduit outdoors must be rated THWN. The "W" denotes water-resistant.

ETA: There's that echo again!
 
  #19  
Old 10-26-12, 06:06 PM
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Great :-( Now I have to go buy 250' of 14-2 and THWN Wire, at least I know now before I ran everything... Ok last question Solid Or Stranded for the new cable? Also Color is it ok to buy a big spool of one color and use colored tape on the wire or do I need to buy 3 colors?

Thanks Again, Mike
 
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Old 10-26-12, 07:38 PM
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Solid Or Stranded for the new cable?
I'm guessing you're asking about the new individual conductors you'll install in the conduit, not cable. Stranded is easier to pull, much harder to push, and a real PITA to terminate (although less so with clamp terminals, which is what you'll be dealing with). I think I'd choose the solid.

Also Color is it ok to buy a big spool of one color and use colored tape on the wire or do I need to buy 3 colors?
You should buy 14 AWG THHN/THWN WIRE in four colors - black, red, white and green. Green is for ground and white is for neutral, of course. Black is for the A Leg (aka the A Phase) circuits and red is for the B Leg circuits. You could, technically, use just black or red or blue for the hot wires, and tape-tag one of those wires in each set to denote the B Leg, but I'd do it with separate colors to cut down on confusion.

One set is one black, one red and one white. You need one green per conduit, regardless of how many sets are in that pipe. Each set of current-carrying conductors will supply two GFCI receptacles - the black, one white pigtail and a green pigtail to one receptacle, and the red, the second white pigtail and a green pigtail to the other receptacle.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 10-26-12 at 09:35 PM.
  #21  
Old 10-26-12, 08:31 PM
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It is not code compliant to remark wires as neutral or ground if #6 or smaller. All wires #6 and smaller used as grounds or neutrals must be factory colored.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 10-26-12 at 10:01 PM.
  #22  
Old 10-27-12, 06:14 PM
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Well I got all my conduit ran, my outside boxes mounted and all my wire pulled into each box. I didn't have time to wire up the recp today.However I pushed the wires back into the box and mounted all the weather proof covers in case it rains. Not that it matters now but how many # 14 Can you put in 3/4 pvc? and 1/2 pvc?

So far everything is going pretty well, tomorrow it's gonna rain, but I hope to have enough breaks to wire up the outside and complete the inside stuff.

Just wanted to thank all you guys for making this project come together.

Mike
 
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Old 10-27-12, 06:22 PM
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how many # 14 Can you put in 3/4 pvc? and 1/2 pvc?
22 wires in 3/4" and 12 in 1/2", based on conduit fill. I think, though, that there is a limit on the # of circuits per conduit that would limit it below that.

Others may be clearer about that.
 
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Old 10-28-12, 06:46 AM
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oooooh, didn't think about circuits...The one reason this came up was I had to run a 4' run of 1/2 behind my steps as 3/4 would not fit. I'm still ok on # of wires but do have 4 circuits running through the 1/2 and 6 circuits runnng through the 3/4

Thanks, Mike
 
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Old 10-28-12, 08:18 AM
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I'm still ok on # of wires but do have 4 circuits running through the 1/2 and 6 circuits runnng through the 3/4
If I'm right, and I'm just going on memory, the limit is 7, so I think you're OK with that. 10 wires in the 3/4" and 7 in the 1/2", right?

How are you keeping track of the "phases?" Did you pull two different colored hot wires in each set?
 
  #26  
Old 10-29-12, 06:59 AM
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Sorry I didn't get a lot of work done with this project because I had to prepare for Sandy coming.
However,
I only have 3 circuits on the right side of the run. From a Junction box out with 3/4 into first outlet box then into 1/2 then into outlet box # 2 back to 3/4 to the last outlet box # 3.

working backwards at box # 3 I have a red, black, white and green wire terminated on a recp. Red is on top outlet black is on bottom white is on neutral and green is on box ground then to green screw on recp. (4 wires total)

Box 2 has box 3 wires passing through it with the same setup on the recp. (4 passing 4 Term) 8 Total
Box 1 has box 3 wires passing through it and Box 2 Wires Passing through it. with the same setup on the recp. (12 wires total)


Outside Junction Box has 12 Wires going into and back into the garage where another junction box will terminate all the wires.

Not Setup Yet:
Inside Junction Box has the 12 wires from the outside plus 6 runs of 14-2
Box 3 Wires Red hooks to one run of 14-2 Black Hooks to 1 Run of 14-2 Whites are nutted together and Greens are nutted together
Box 2 and 1 Same Setup

From Inside Juction Box 2 runs of 14-2 going back to 2 gang box # 3 that holds GFI 5 and 6
From Inside Juction Box 2 runs of 14-2 going back to 2 gang box # 2 that holds GFI 3 and 4
From Inside Juction Box 2 runs of 14-2 going back to 2 gang box # 1 that holds GFI 1 and 2

From 2 gang box # 3 14-3 back to Main Power Black Wire Going to Line GFI 5 And Red Going to Line GFI 6 White Goes to Both Lines side. 14-2 Black and White Loads from GFI 5 Back to JB and 14-2 Black and White Loads From GFI 6 Back to JB all grounds hooked together.

Same Setup for the other 2 gang boxes.

However with all this said looks like I forgot to run an extra white wire from the JB to all
3 of the boxes outside, So I think I have to run 3 more whites. errrrrr

if so then Outside box 3 will have 5 total wires unless I have to run another ground as well then 6 wires. meaning the white wire will hook up to the bottom side of the silver screw and hook up the 2 grounds.
Box 2 will have 5 or 6 wires passing through it and same setup as above.
Box 1 will have 10 or 12 passing through it and same setup as above.
JB will have 15 - 18 wires

Now I am confused... Let me know if I need to run another white and green wire for each outside box.

What a mess, Thank You, Mike
 
  #27  
Old 10-29-12, 09:52 AM
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After a certain number of current carrying conductors in a raceway you need to consider derating issues. This would mean the #14 could need to be used at less than 15 amps.

All the circuits can share one ground sized for the largest circuit.
 
  #28  
Old 10-29-12, 05:11 PM
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And I thought this was going to be a simple project...I'm double checking my plan again. I'll post back later, Thanks Everyone !!!!
 
  #29  
Old 10-29-12, 09:40 PM
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OK, stop. Back up.

I thought - we thought - that you intended to feed eight GFCI receptacles. But when you say
at box # 3 I have a red, black, white and green wire terminated on a recp. Red is on top outlet black is on bottom white is on neutral and green is on box ground then to green screw on recp. (4 wires total)
it sounds like your intention was to supply four standard duplex receptacles, and to have eight circuits by supplying each half of each duplex receptacle separately.

Which is it?
Now I am confused...
Yeah, well, you're not the only one!

Mike, a GFCI receptacle is a non-separable duplex receptacle. It is supplied by terminating one hot wire and one neutral to the pair of terminals marked LINE. Nothing is connected to the pair of terminals marked LOAD unless it is, in fact, an additional load for which the receptacle will provide GFCI protection. A GFCI receptacle cannot be separately supplied so that the "top" and the "bottom" receptacles are fed by separate circuits. They aren't built that way.

There is no "top" or "bottom" to a GFCI receptacle, or to any other receptacle, because there is no standard orientation for mounting one. Any receptacle can be mounted ground up. ground down, ground left or ground right - it makes no difference.

The instructions we have posted so far are for installing and supplying eight GFCI duplex receptacles. Each of those should be supplied by terminating either a black or a red hot wire to the brass colored LINE clamp terminal and one white pigtail from a shared neutral to the silver colored LINE clamp terminal. No other current-carrying conductors should be connected to any of the eight GFCI receptacles. Of course, each of the eight duplex GFCI receptacles should also have a ground wire terminated to it.

To feed the eight receptacles, you should have a total of thirteen or fourteen wires: four blacks, four reds, four whites, and one green per conduit. The black, red and white wires should be taped together into four sets of three wires, with one black, one red and one white per set. The green wires just run with those, with one green in every conduit.

At the receptacle end, using one set of three wires as an example, two pigtails are added to the white wire. One GFCI receptacle is connected to the black wire, one of the two white pigtails, and a green wire pigtailed off the single green in the conduit. A second GFCI receptacle is connected to the red wire, the second of the two white pigtails, and another green wire pigtailed off the single green in the conduit.

That gives you two duplex GFCI receptacles, each supplied from a separate circuit breaker and both sharing one neutral. The same pattern is followed for the other six duplex GFCI receptacles.

At the panel end. Each set of three wires ie terminated as: the black wire to a 15A single-pole breaker installed on Leg (or Phase) A; the red wire to the 15A single-pole breaker installed on Leg (or Phase) B, immediately above or the Leg A breaker for this set, and tied to that breaker with a handle tie; the white wire to a neutral bus and the green wire to a ground bus.** The same pattern is followed for the other three wire sets.

**Tech Note: You may have separate neutral and ground buses in your panel, but you may not. If the neutrals and grounds are terminated to the same bus bar, just do the same.
 
  #30  
Old 10-30-12, 06:50 AM
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Firstly I’m sorry for the confusion, I know you guys only can get a picture of what I’m doing but what I say and it can be hard at times to express the correct terminology of what one is doing.

However I think we are on the same page, I do want to supply 8 GFI for 8 circuits , 2 circuits will be at each outside box and each outside box I will have a duplex receptacle Fed by 2 GFI…
Take Note that 2 of those circuits will not be in the conduit run as they are on the left side of the garage, but on the right side of the garage will be 6 circuits 3 Boxes 3 duplex receptacle Feb by 6 GFI mounted inside the garage.

Let me absorb what you have written so I can ask the correct questions if needed.

Once again I am sorry for not expressing the correct plan and confusing everyone…
But really appreciate the help you guys give…

Ps: my panel has the grounds and neutrals together.

Mike
 
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Old 10-30-12, 09:05 AM
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Ok I made a new drawing of how I think things shoud be layed out, I think I have it now.

Post back any issues that you may see.

Thank You, Mike
 
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Old 10-30-12, 01:37 PM
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Thank you for the diagram. I can't actually read it because I can't easily enlarge it, but I can get a sense from it of the way you're planning to wire everything. Combining that with your last post, here's what I'm seeing --

I do want to supply 8 GFI for 8 circuits , 2 circuits will be at each outside box and each outside box I will have a duplex receptacle Fed by 2 GFI…
Take Note that 2 of those circuits will not be in the conduit run as they are on the left side of the garage, but on the right side of the garage will be 6 circuits 3 Boxes 3 duplex receptacle Feb by 6 GFI mounted inside the garage.
You're planning to use the eight new circuits to supply one GFCI device each, mounting and supplying them in pairs. If those devices are GFCI receptacles, that will give you a total of 16 GFCI-protected places you can plug something into. Then, in addition, you are planning to run wire from each pair of GFCI devices to a standard duplex receptacle, break the tabs on sides of those duplexes, and supply each individual receptacle with a hot wire and a neutral from the LOAD terminals on one of the pair of GFCIs. That will give you eight more GFCI-protected places you can plug something into, for a total of 24.

You also say the GFCIs will be mounted inside the garage and the duplex receptacles will be mounted outside, so the first 16 new plug-in locations will be inside your garage and the other eight will be outside.

Is that what you want? 16 individual GFCI receptacles inside your garage and 8 outside? Why do you need so many inside? What are you planning to power in the garage that leads you to add that many new places to plug something in?

Or did I misunderstand something?
 
  #33  
Old 10-30-12, 03:00 PM
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It might be easier just to alternate the duplex receptacles in an ABAB instead of two circuits on the same duplex.
 
  #34  
Old 10-30-12, 04:21 PM
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You got it,

The inside GFI are not really going to be used by much of anything, I'm using these to protect my LOR controllers that will be mounted near each of the outside outlet boxes. Also if they happen to trip it will be much easier to reset rather than crawling around the bushes.

So it looks like the only thing I have missed so far is running an extra white wire to each outlet box.
You did say to break the contact on the Tabs so the hot side of the duplex recp, which I have done. However the silver on the other side should also be broken ? this would make some sense because of the complete different circuits.

Sorry about the drawing I really wanted to give you a good picture of what I was doing. It looked fine before I attached it. However it seems you got the picture anyway.

I hope to continue this project this weekend, All that is left is to run 3 more whites in the conduit on the right side to the 3 outlet boxes I'll mark this neutral so I can pair it up with the correct circuit that is already ran. I'll have to break the silver tab and wire the new white wire on the recp. Next I need to make all the connections in the Junction Box then finish up wiring the GFI and finally wire into the panel At least every thing is well marked so all the circuits will match up.

What do you think? All this for dancing Christmas lights...My wife thinks i'm crazy... Maybe so lol

Thanks for all your help...Mike
 
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Old 10-31-12, 04:45 PM
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So it looks like the only thing I have missed so far is running an extra white wire to each outlet box.
I thought I saw a white for each half of your duplex receptacles in your drawing, so I thought you'd already run it.

You did say to break the contact on the Tabs so the hot side of the duplex recp, which I have done. However the silver on the other side should also be broken ? this would make some sense because of the complete different circuits.
Actually, what I said was
break the tabs on sides of those duplexes
What i meant to say was "break the tabs on the sides of those duplexes," or "break the tabs on both sides of those duplexes." Yes, you're right. I missed the needed word, and then missed that I had missed it.

What do you think? All this for dancing Christmas lights...My wife thinks i'm crazy...
Oh, I completely agree with your wife. But what would be the fun in not doing this?
 
  #36  
Old 11-06-12, 05:31 AM
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Well big thanks to you guys for helping through this project... Looks like everything worked out almost perfect.
Meaning running those extra white wires was a PITA !!!! What I ended up doing was pulling back one of the long runs and attaching the new wires to that wire and pulling it on through... Got everything hooked up and tested only one issue is when I was testing one run of the GFI's when I put my tester in both lights light up (on tester) on each circuit which means everything is ok in the wiring however when I push the button (on tester) the GFI Pops which is good that circuit turns off as expected, however when I put my tester in the other part of the duplex outlet, I only get a middle light which means I have an open Neutral ??? either way I test these pairs it comes up the same way. The GFI's will pop but I always have an open neutral. However before the GFI Pops everything is fine.

All the other Duplex outlets are fine. Have any idea's on what the problem may be?

Thanks again for all your help, Mike
 
  #37  
Old 11-07-12, 11:58 AM
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when I was testing one run of the GFI's when I put my tester in both lights light up (on tester) on each circuit which means everything is ok in the wiring however when I push the button (on tester) the GFI Pops which is good that circuit turns off as expected, however when I put my tester in the other part of the duplex outlet, I only get a middle light which means I have an open Neutral ??? either way I test these pairs it comes up the same way. The GFI's will pop but I always have an open neutral. However before the GFI Pops everything is fine.
Since this is only happening on one of the four duplex receptacles, there must be something about the wiring between the pair of GFCIs and the duplex in that set that is different from the other three sets.

I'm wondering if you might have swapped the neutrals for the duplex on that set, or tied one into a LINE terminal on its GFCI. Something like that.

I would go back over it until I found the problem. Having the neutrals tied to the "wrong" GFCI sounds like the most likely cause.
 
  #38  
Old 11-13-12, 12:16 PM
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Sorry been busy hanging Christmas Lights...lol

I got this fixed I first tested the GFI with my tester to see if I got the same lights on the tester. The GFI Were wired correctly. that took me to the wiring on the duplex and you were right the neutral wires were swapped. I reversed the whites to go to the correct GFI and bang everything is now perfect....

Many Many Thanks... Mike
 
  #39  
Old 11-13-12, 03:35 PM
ray2047's Avatar
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Thanks for letting us know the outcome.
 
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