Need a wire diagram to understand this.

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  #1  
Old 11-11-12, 12:33 PM
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Need a wire diagram to understand this.

I want to run most of my lighting on one separate circuit from the main panel for the upstairs. I wish to run the power from one light to the next and then run a separate line to the switches.

So the circuit will be main panel, light with a switch, a light with a switch, then 2 lights operated by a switch, then 2 lights operated by a switch and a fan operated by a timer switch, then a light with a switch, then a light with a switch, and finally back to the main panel.

Can someone post a wire diagram to show how this is done correctly. I will mention that in all cases where 2 lights are operated by a switch, the switch is located closest to the first light which is closest to the wires coming in from the main panel.

*** In the bathroom where the fan is I have a light/fan combo unit and a light over the sink/vanity. I wish to operate the fan on a timer and operate the lights on one switch so they go on/off together. I called this 2 lights with a switch and a fan with a timer above.
 

Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 12:49 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-11-12, 12:43 PM
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You do it with a switch loop. The diagram below shows 2008 NEC code which allows the use of a 2-conductor cable. If you were on 2011 NEC code a three conductor cable is needed.



 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-11-12 at 01:21 PM.
  #3  
Old 11-11-12, 12:55 PM
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Thanks, I get this part but how about connecting a second light to that switch and then sending power to the next light with a switch in the circuit without having the first switch sever the power supply.

I have the switch located closest to the main panel in every instance.

I should mention that it's all roughed in with 14/2 wire but I am willing to switch to 14/3 if that is a better option.
 
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Old 11-11-12, 01:27 PM
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I'm not sure I understand your question but if you follow the diagram for 2011 NEC switch loop I added to my post you can run other switched lights from the switch box.
Switch loop black pigtailed to both switches.
Black to light to other switch terminal.
Whites wire nutted together.

 
  #5  
Old 11-11-12, 01:34 PM
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Here is the diagram.

Is this the correct way to wire this. How would I wire in a fan light combo for the light that is located at the splices that run to the switch. The fan will be on it`s own independent timer.

I want to be able to have the lights on or off with and the fan on or off independently.

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Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 02:47 PM.
  #6  
Old 11-11-12, 02:33 PM
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My last post has been modified to clear up the confusion. I think the diagram I found online shows what I want to do but I am not sure how to wire in the fan with a seperate timer switch.

I noticed they forgot to put black tape on the white wires entering the switch!
 
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Old 11-11-12, 02:35 PM
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Having all the lighting on a single circuit is a bad idea in my opinion. What happens if for some reason that single circuit trips the circuit breaker?
 
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Old 11-11-12, 02:46 PM
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Most not all lights on one circuit! I like this option because if you plug in a power tool the lights will not flicker. But this is straying from the topic. How do I add in a fan and timer to that light on the left. It`s a light fan combo unit.

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Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 03:08 PM.
  #9  
Old 11-11-12, 03:08 PM
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I think the diagram I found online shows what I want to do but I am not sure how to wire in the fan with a seperate timer switch.
If you run 14-3 from the "Power in from the receptacles" splice to the switch box, the switched power for the fan can return on the red wire in that cable.
 
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Old 11-11-12, 03:42 PM
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Is that correct then.

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  #11  
Old 11-11-12, 04:20 PM
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Is that correct then.
It could be. Here are my assumptions:
  1. The power from the receptacles enters the fan/light combo;
  2. The double rectangle in the lower right is the timer switch; and
  3. The red wire from the timer switch to the fan is in the same cable as the black and white that go to the light switch, and that you drew the larger oval to indicate that.
If so, then yes.

One question, though: What is the small red rectangle rectangle just above and to the left of the light switch. Does that represent a splice?
 
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Old 11-11-12, 04:24 PM
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All your assumptions are correct. I see now the extra splice I drew in is not needed. Thanks for your help! This thread is solved!
 

Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 11-11-12, 09:20 PM
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OK, one final question! At the end of the circuit there be one last set of one switch controlling 2 lights. Is it ok to run 14-2 wire instead of 14-3 wire to the last light. I can`t see where I would need 14-3 as there will be no need to run power to anything else.
 
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Old 11-11-12, 09:31 PM
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OK, one final question! At the end of the circuit there be one last set of one switch controlling 2 lights. Is it ok to run 14-2 wire instead of 14-3 wire to the last light. I can`t see where I would need 14-3 as there will be no need to run power to anything else.
Right. You don't need unswitched power beyond where the last switch loop ties in.

BTW, I just gotta point out that none of this would meet the current code requirements here in the states. Here we now have to provide a neutral in every switch box so that any dimmer, timer, motion sensor or other control device that needs one will have it there. No more switch loops for us!
 
  #15  
Old 11-11-12, 09:45 PM
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Are you saying that a 30 min. timer will not work on the bathroom fan with this config. Is there another way to wire these circuits without having power at the switches. I prefer to have the power source going to the lights.

Should I run 14-3 wire for the light switch and another 14-3 wire for the fan switch to bring it up to code for your neck of the woods.

I would just not use the red wire on the light switch and wire nut it off and set it aside.

How about the timer switch. How would you wire that.
 

Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 10:06 PM.
  #16  
Old 11-11-12, 09:59 PM
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I prefer to have the power source going to the lights.
You and I can prefer until the cows come home. Electricity doesn't care. If it needs a neutral, it just doesn't work until it gets one. It's as simple as that.

Are you saying that a 30 min. timer will not work on the bathroom fan with this config.
No, I'm saying that any device that requires a complete circuit will not work in any of your switch boxes. I don't know whether the timer you've got in mind requires a neutral. Some do and some don't.
 
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Old 11-11-12, 09:59 PM
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I prefer to have the power source going to the lights.
Why? No advantage and it can be a disadvantage.

Are you saying that a 30 min. timer will not work on the bathroom fan with this config.
Some timers draw a slight trickle current through the light and don't use a neutral but the only work with incandescent and halogen bulbs.

If you use a 3-conductor cable for the switch loop you can comply with NEC 2011 and still bring power to the light first. One advantage to bringing power to the switch though is no need for more expensive 3-conductor cable.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 11-11-12 at 11:33 PM.
  #18  
Old 11-11-12, 10:01 PM
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One advantage to bringing power to the switch though is no need for more expensive 3-conductor cable.
And 4-conductor for the fan/light combo.
 
  #19  
Old 11-11-12, 10:13 PM
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Ok I will use 14-3 for all the light switches not involving the fan light combo and just leave the red wire to the side with a connector. Is this how you would do it. It is too late to switch to power going to the switch unless I can take power from my 20A bathroom circuit and bring it to the 2 switches for the fan 2 light combo. If not I could take power from a nearby bedroom but that could get messy.


If not can someone draw a diagram explaining the connections that will work for the fan timer 2 light combo that is the end of the run for the entire lighting circuit using 4 conductor wire.
 

Last edited by chopper123; 11-11-12 at 10:42 PM.
  #20  
Old 11-11-12, 10:56 PM
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Send power down on the black wire and send it back to the light(s) on the red. Splice all 3 white wires together at the light, leave them white (unmarked) and cap them off in the switch box if you don't need them. They are the neutrals.

Use the blue wire in the 4-conductor to return power to the fan.
 
  #21  
Old 11-11-12, 11:08 PM
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Too complicated for me to understand that.

Ok I will tap into the bedroom 15 A circuit for the 2 switch 2 light fan combo with a timer.

Here is what I have in diagram form. Not sure if this is correct. Is there some connection to be made to the fan timer switch via the white wires.
 
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  #22  
Old 11-11-12, 11:13 PM
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Did you mean to indicate a 3-conductor cable?

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  #23  
Old 11-11-12, 11:16 PM
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OK I am running 14-3 from the light switch and timer switch to the fan light combo. Sorry for the confusion. Where does the white wire come into play at the timer switch? Is there supposed to be 3 connections there? Or is everything fine with the way I am showing it?
 
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Old 11-11-12, 11:30 PM
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Is there supposed to be 3 connections there
Depends on the timer switch as previously stated.

Are you saying that a 30 min. timer will not work on the bathroom fan with this config.
Some timers draw a slight trickle current through the light and don't use a neutral....
Those kind do not have a neutral but you can't use them with CFL bulbs.
 
  #25  
Old 11-11-12, 11:41 PM
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So if I wanted to connect a timer to a light with CFL's I need to get a timer switch that connects like this?

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Last edited by chopper123; 11-12-12 at 12:07 AM.
  #26  
Old 11-12-12, 08:24 AM
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I bought more 14-3 wire for the switches as I thought this would be best to do even if it's not yet code here. Is this how you would do it in your neck of the woods to bring it up to code?

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Oh I see, looking back at an reply, I got the red and white backwards at the switch, so I should do as below? No need for the black electrical tape on the white wires?

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And does the white wire at the light in the first diagram marked with black tape get moved to connect with all the other white wires now?
 

Last edited by chopper123; 11-12-12 at 08:41 AM.
  #27  
Old 11-12-12, 09:05 AM
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I bought more 14-3 wire for the switches as I thought this would be best to do even if it's not yet code here. Is this how you would do it in your neck of the woods to bring it up to code?
Your second diagram is correct. The white wire in the switch leg is not re-purposed to conduct ungrounded power so it is not redesignated. It is used as a grounded conductor, or neutral, and is left white to indicate that.
 
  #28  
Old 11-12-12, 09:49 AM
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Did you mean to indicate a 3-conductor cable?
As stated earlier, in the bathroom, where there are two switches in one box, in order to have a neutral in the switch box, you need a
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
4-conductor for the fan/light combo.
In the ceiling, where the power reeds in and out, splice the three blacks cable wires together. Splice all of the white wires together - the three from the cables, the neutral for the fan and the neutrals for both lights. Splice the red wire from the switches to the black wires for the two lights. Splice the blue wire from the switches to the black wire for the fan.

In the switch box, add two pigtails to the black wire and use those to feed the two switches. (If the timer had wires instead of screw terminals, you can use the timer's power-in wire instead of one of the pigtails.) Terminate the red wire to the second screw on the on/off switch that controls the lights. Terminate the blue wire to the power-out terminal (or wire) on the timer. If your timer needs a neutral, terminate the white wire to that. If not, just cap the white wire and leave it for future use.

Originally Posted by ray2047
Some timers draw a slight trickle current through the light and don't use a neutral....

Those kind do not have a neutral but you can't use them with CFL bulbs.
Since the timer is controlling the fan in this installation, the type of light bulb doesn't matter.
 
  #29  
Old 11-12-12, 10:13 AM
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Since I am back and forth talking about wiring the 2 light one switch circuit and the 2 light/fan combo unit this thread has become a mess. At this point I would ask a mod to delete it so as to avoid confusion. I will start 2 seperate threads on each of these issues.
 
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