LED installation gone wrong

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  #1  
Old 12-19-12, 09:47 PM
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LED installation gone wrong

So I installed one LED light in the middle of my bedroom ceiling wall. No problem. It only had three wires. (Black, White, and Copper). Very quick and easy installation.

Now I took out the old ball light in my closet (Which is next to bathroom. Two closest on side, then door leading to bathroom. It's more like a little hallway to be exact.).

Once I took it out I noticed that it was probably going to give me a **** ton of trouble as there where 3 sets of 3 wires (Black, White, and Copper) for a total of nine wires. So after seeing that I decided the best thing for me to do was label all the wires so I don't have to mess around with it. And I did so.

Now before I put the LED in, I connected all the wires the way they where and connected the two remaining wires that would be connected to the lamp, to each other to see if it would complete a circuit.

Just my luck, the breaker pops back down everytime I flip the switch with the old combination.



Here's some info on each outlet.

1. This one is controlled by the switch. Somehow this wirebunch is also connected to the bedroom LED I installed earlier. I am guessing there are connected together. The bedroom LED does not work if this switch doesn't have a circuit. When I connect this one to the power wirebunch (B to B, W to W) it shuts the breaker down when flipped on. This one is currently has both black and white wires cut off (insulated).

2. I assume this is the power outlet. Without this one neither of the other two do anything. When connected to the bathroom wirebunch. All the outlets and lights work except for the bedroom ceiling LED. When connected to the switch directly it short circuits (i guess thats what its called?) and flips the breaker.

3. Bathroom wirebunch. Controls all the lights in the bathroom. When not connected to power the bathroom is left powerless.

Currently I have the Bathroom wires connect to the power, and the switch isolated. In order for me to have light in the bathroom until I figure out what to do. The problem is that without the other wires connected to the switch, the ceiling light in my bedroom and closet don't work!

Help please!
 
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  #2  
Old 12-19-12, 10:21 PM
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So after seeing that I decided the best thing for me to do was label all the wires so I don't have to mess around with it. And I did so
Did you take all the wires apart ?!?!?

1-switch (switch leg only)
2-power in
3-bathroom (power out)

The whites from 2 and 3 get connected. This connection will also be where your white from your light connects.

The blacks from 2 and 3 get connected and the white from 1.
(If you had some colored tape you could make this wire another color than white. White denotes neutral EXCEPT when it's used as a switch leg.)

The black from switch 1 goes to the black of your light.

You should be able to handle the grounds.
 
  #3  
Old 12-19-12, 10:34 PM
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When I connect this one to the power wirebunch (B to B, W to W) it shuts the breaker down when flipped on.
It sounds like your switch is wired as a switch loop. Pull the switch out of the wall and see how it's wired. If there's only one 2-conductor cable entering the switch box and the black and white wires from that cable are connected to the switch, do this:

Mark the white wire connected to the switch with black or red electrical tape or permanent marker to show that it's carrying ungrounded current. Make sure both the box, if it's metal, and the switch are bonded to ground Remount the switch, and cover it..

In the ceiling, splice all of the ground wires together, including any for the fixture. If the box is metal, bond it to the grounds (add a pigtail to the ground splice if you need to). Mark the white from the switch with tape or marker and splice it together with the black wires from the other two cables B, B & W). Splice the two remaining white wires and the white for your fixture together. Splice the black wire for your fixture to the remaining black ceiling wire.

---------------

If your switch is wired differently, post back to tell us what you found and we'll advise you from there.
 
  #4  
Old 12-20-12, 09:54 AM
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Thanks for replying guys.

@PJMax

Yes I had to take them all apart to take out the old box inside the ceiling and add a LED box. But I like I said I labled them all before to know where they go.

The funny thing is that I labeled it exactly the way you just described.

http://i.imgur.com/lcxS3.jpg

But when ever I connect those that black to white wire (see pic) it shuts down the breaker.

Is there something else in the house that might have gone bad that could cause the breaker to pop?

Or do I need to attach the LED in order for it to actually work? I figured it would be the same result with or without the light.. and this way I could avoid possible damage to the light?

P.S. another small thing... When I original took out the original ball lamp. The setup above is correct, except that it had another black extension wire going from that single black wire to the lamp. It was different though.. it had thin whisker like wire(s) instead of a single thick single wire. So did the white one (coming from the two connected whites). I figured they just wanted to extend the wire to reach lamp and thought nothing of it threw them out. They looked cheap and had new wire ready to go if needed. Plus I didn't need an extension.

P.S.S. I just tried it one more to make sure I wasnted doing anything wrong the other 20 times. Still doesn't work. Also I noticed that the black and white wires that should go to the light have a black residue (like burning).
 

Last edited by Flawed; 12-20-12 at 10:11 AM.
  #5  
Old 12-20-12, 02:40 PM
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A fixture does not have to be installed to stop the breaker from tripping.

Your splices look correct. Can you check to see if a hot wire is touching a ground or neutral? Perhaps the insulation is knicked.
 
  #6  
Old 12-20-12, 06:55 PM
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when ever I connect those that black to white wire (see pic) it shuts down the breaker.
Only when you turn the switch on? If so, excellent! You just proved that the breaker protecting this circuit is working as it should, and that the switch is a correctly wired switch loop.

The white wire spliced to the two black wires is carrying ungrounded power to the switch. The black wire in the same cable is bringing it back. The white pigtail is connected to the house neutral.

I figured it would be the same result with or without the light.
When you connect the wires intended for the fixture (the single black wire and the white pigtail) to each other, you've connected the ungrounded conductor to the grounded conductor. That's a dead short. When you close the circuit by turning the switch on, it trips the breaker. If the breaker didn't trip and open the circuit, the wires would melt and/or start a fire.

It's time to hook up the lamp.
 
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Old 12-21-12, 12:45 PM
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@Nashkat1

Thanks for the reply! Yeah everybody seems to be telling me the same thing.

I tried installing the fixture for the light (without the actual light).

http://i.imgur.com/GYlY0.jpg

The breaker still flipped.

Does the actual LED need to be put into the Edison socket? Does that make a difference? I'm a very careful person when it comes to things I am not 100% sure on lol.

Wanted to see if would flip the breaker with fixture installed first. Then if it didn't flip the breaker I would install the LED part. But it flipped the breaker with the fixture.
 
  #8  
Old 12-21-12, 12:52 PM
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The reason the breaker is tripping is because there is a wire crossed somewhere. I suspect the wrong cable is wired into the switch loop.
 
  #9  
Old 12-21-12, 02:43 PM
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@pcboss,

Everything was working perfectly fine before I removed the old ceiling lamp. Nothing else was messed with after removal of the lamp.
 
  #10  
Old 12-21-12, 05:54 PM
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Are you sure you correctly labeled the cables?

Also, did you twist the ground wires into a splice, connect the long ground to the fixture ground, and push the grounds to an area where they couldn't contact power? Was any bare conductor showing outside the wire nut protecting the hot splice?

If yes to all of those, and if your fixture is light enough, try it again with the fixture hanging by its wires, not mounted to the box.
 
  #11  
Old 12-21-12, 07:16 PM
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Can you check for continuity between hot and neutral and hot to ground on just the fixture?
 
  #12  
Old 12-21-12, 08:29 PM
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@pcboss

I have one of those pens/tools that tells you if electricity is running through a wire. I can check which wires are hot if you want. Just tell me what setup to use. I'll try the current setup up.

If that's what you're asking?

@nashkat1

Yes I am sure that I labeled it correctly. PJmax also said that was the correct setup before I even told anyone how I set it up.

And I am pretty sure there is no exposed wire. But I will do a complete check tomorrow morning.
 
  #13  
Old 12-21-12, 08:36 PM
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@pcboss

I have one of those pens/tools that tells you if electricity is running through a wire. I can check which wires are hot if you want. Just tell me what setup to use. I'll try the current setup up.
Not really any good for serious testing they are prone to false positives when checking voltages and do not check for continuity which is what PCBoss was asking you to check. A cheap analog multimeter will give you far more reliable results and will enable you to check for continuity.
 
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Old 12-21-12, 08:37 PM
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You cannot check continuity with a non-contact detector. You would need a meter.
 
  #15  
Old 12-21-12, 09:39 PM
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I don;t have access to one.. Judging by the replies so far. There is no other setup offered for the wires. Which means I probably have the right one.

And that its a separate problem.. which no one knows ._."
 
  #16  
Old 12-21-12, 09:46 PM
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A cheap analog multimeter is only $8-$15. You can't DIY without at least simple tools.

Example: Amazon.com: Pocket-size analog multimeter, YG188: Home Improvement
 
  #17  
Old 12-22-12, 10:16 AM
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Oh well that I can manage. It sounded like it would cost 80-100$ lol.
 
  #18  
Old 12-22-12, 03:12 PM
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Called an electrician. The switch controlling the light was fried and that was the problem.

He even gave me his multi-meter since he just got a new one.

Thanks for all the replies!
 
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