240V GFCI tripping with "ground" connected
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240V GFCI tripping with "ground" connected
I wired a hot tub to a 240 GFCI breaker. It only seems to work with the bare wire ground disconnected. If I connect the ground (which is connected to the same bar as the neutral (of course) the breaker trips instantly.
Essentially I have seen this happen before and just did not connect the ground wire. Instead I just left the ground disconnected and everything seemed to work fine. I'm just concerned about doing it right.
The bare ground is connected to the neutral bar at the hot tub as is the white neutral wire. Again, the white neutral is connected to the neutral bar at the box as is the white neutral wire.
Any advice?
Thanks
Ray
Essentially I have seen this happen before and just did not connect the ground wire. Instead I just left the ground disconnected and everything seemed to work fine. I'm just concerned about doing it right.
The bare ground is connected to the neutral bar at the hot tub as is the white neutral wire. Again, the white neutral is connected to the neutral bar at the box as is the white neutral wire.
Any advice?
Thanks
Ray
#2
The bare ground is connected to the neutral bar at the hot tub as is the white neutral wire
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Hi Joe
I feel like an idiot. I did indeed wire it correctly. I just mis-stated it above. There are 4 wires coming from the tub. The 3 that are connected to the GFI breaker and one bare ground. They are connected properly (load/neutral/load) and the pigtail is connected to the neutral bar. With the bare ground disconnected, it works. With the bare ground connected it trips instantly.
Sorry I did not explain myself right. I have actually upgraded my own service in the past from 100 to 200 amp and had it inspected by an electrician who said I do beautiful neat work but I have always had difficulty understanding the concept of needing a ground wire when in fact the neutral seems to serve the same purpose and indeed they go to the same bar (not in the same lug).
Again...sorry for the improper description.
Ray
I feel like an idiot. I did indeed wire it correctly. I just mis-stated it above. There are 4 wires coming from the tub. The 3 that are connected to the GFI breaker and one bare ground. They are connected properly (load/neutral/load) and the pigtail is connected to the neutral bar. With the bare ground disconnected, it works. With the bare ground connected it trips instantly.
Sorry I did not explain myself right. I have actually upgraded my own service in the past from 100 to 200 amp and had it inspected by an electrician who said I do beautiful neat work but I have always had difficulty understanding the concept of needing a ground wire when in fact the neutral seems to serve the same purpose and indeed they go to the same bar (not in the same lug).
Again...sorry for the improper description.
Ray
#4
Ahhh.....Ray.
Why you need a ground.
You have a device. In your case a spa. The heater element is connected across the 240 volt line and doesn't require a neutral.
You have a at least two motors...a blower and a circulating pump. Usually 120 volt motors. Makes sense to put one motor on one branch of the 240 v line and the the other on the other leg.
For example....the blower motor is connected red leg and neutral.
Circulating pump is connected black leg to neutral.
You've decided that since a neutral and ground are the same thing.....you do away with the ground since the neutral line can do both. Makes sense and will work fine.
Now.....either at the tub end or the panel end....the neutral falls out of the neutral bar. You turn on the circulating pump. Since you no longer have neutral and you decided not to use ground.....everything metal on the spa is now at 120 volt potential. The motor now creates a direct path from the black leg right to neutral.......and everything that should be grounded is live.
All hypothetical.....of course.....a ground MUST be used.
ON EDIT: Usually the cause of a GFI trip in a spa is a leaky heater. If I get a call when the breaker is tripping....the first thing I do is disconnect both of the heater lines.
Why you need a ground.
You have a device. In your case a spa. The heater element is connected across the 240 volt line and doesn't require a neutral.
You have a at least two motors...a blower and a circulating pump. Usually 120 volt motors. Makes sense to put one motor on one branch of the 240 v line and the the other on the other leg.
For example....the blower motor is connected red leg and neutral.
Circulating pump is connected black leg to neutral.
You've decided that since a neutral and ground are the same thing.....you do away with the ground since the neutral line can do both. Makes sense and will work fine.
Now.....either at the tub end or the panel end....the neutral falls out of the neutral bar. You turn on the circulating pump. Since you no longer have neutral and you decided not to use ground.....everything metal on the spa is now at 120 volt potential. The motor now creates a direct path from the black leg right to neutral.......and everything that should be grounded is live.
All hypothetical.....of course.....a ground MUST be used.
ON EDIT: Usually the cause of a GFI trip in a spa is a leaky heater. If I get a call when the breaker is tripping....the first thing I do is disconnect both of the heater lines.
Last edited by PJmax; 12-22-12 at 08:11 AM. Reason: testing
#5
I have always had difficulty understanding the concept of needing a ground wire when in fact the neutral seems to serve the same purpose and indeed they go to the same bar
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It's a 3 wire set up
I re-read the directions, it is a 240 volt but 3 wire, not 4. So, just out of curiosity, given the previous post, how does the system remain safe>
I thought I had posted the manual page. It does not show a ground, just the 2 hots and the neutral.
I thought I had posted the manual page. It does not show a ground, just the 2 hots and the neutral.
#7
I re-read the directions, it is a 240 volt but 3 wire, not 4. So, just out of curiosity, given the previous post, how does the system remain safe>
I thought I had posted the manual page. It does not show a ground, just the 2 hots and the neutral.
I thought I had posted the manual page. It does not show a ground, just the 2 hots and the neutral.
If I connect the ground (which is connected to the same bar as the neutral (of course) the breaker trips instantly.
#8
I thought I had posted the manual page. It does not show a ground, just the 2 hots and the neutral.
Every spa I've wired has always had a ground. I can't remember if I've wired any just three wires.
Post a link to the spa mfg or leave me a make and model or at least the make and approx. year and we'll go from there.
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The wire that was run from the box to the tub had 4 wires. Red, black, white and bare ground. The directions to the tub don't show the use of a bare ground. I had run that ground from the Ground(neutral bar) at the tub to the neutral bar at the box. The White (neutral wire) at the tub was attached to the neutral bar at the tub and then to the breaker which pigtails to the neutral bar at the box. Essentially, both the bare ground wire and the white neutral were connected to the same terminal at the tub, only when it got to the box the white went to the breaker and the bare went to neutral bar. the tub is an Altamar
Here is the link to the instructions http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...s5MoJw&cad=rja
Here is the link to the instructions http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...s5MoJw&cad=rja
#10
Essentially, both the bare ground wire and the white neutral were connected to the same terminal at the tub
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On the wiring diagram in the manual I have the white going to the bar (TB3) and that goes back to the box to connect to the GFI breaker and then through the gfi pigtail to the neutral bar.
So where does the bare ground wire go in that diagram?
So where does the bare ground wire go in that diagram?
#13
I'm looking into your wiring now. Do you have a terminal block for only two wires and the ground block ?
Your spa is a 240 volt model only. It requires 2 hots and a ground.
A neutral is not required and wont be used
Your spa is a 240 volt model only. It requires 2 hots and a ground.
A neutral is not required and wont be used
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Yes...that's what it has. What I wonder about is why there is no provision for the bare ground. In a prior post somone pointed out thatthis could be dangerous (not having one) since some of the pumps may be 110 v.
#15
Your spa is a 240 volt model only. It requires 2 hots and a ground.
A neutral is not required and wont be used
A neutral is not required and wont be used
I looked up the schematic for your unit and it has a transformer on it to power the low voltage items.