Two Structures, Two Service Entrances, one property

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  #1  
Old 01-22-13, 04:40 PM
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Two Structures, Two Service Entrances, one property

...and a pizza place.

Here's my current situation, long-term plan, and possible intermediate design of which I'm trying to assess the code compliance/safety of. See attached drawing.

Current setup:

*Single home residential property with a house and detached garage.

*Overhead service to house

*Single 20A circuit to detached garage, overhead

Desired long-term future setup:


*Remove current overhead service entrance to house

*New service entrance to garage either underground or overhead (the utility pole is about 8 feet from the garage, no concrete to go under, so underground would be preferred)

*Main panel in garage

*Underground feed in conduit from garage to sub panel in house supplying all household branch circuits

*Re-run all branch circuits in house to this new sub panel

Questions about possible interim solution:


1) If I remove the overhead 20A branch circuit to the detached garage, is it against code or otherwise a bad idea to have two service entrances on the same property, even though each one powers its own separate structure? I am aware that if this were the case I'll have two meters and two electric bills as long as I have both active. Perhaps this is just between me and PSO.

2) Once I'm down to a single service entrance, assuming #1 is okay: As long as I use proper gauge feeds and ampacity breakers, is there any code violation or other reason not to have (for example) 250A service entrance at the garage and thus 250A main panel, and still have a 250A subpanel in the house for all of its branch circuits? The reason is that I would have a just a handful of branch circuits in the garage while most of the total load is in the house, but would still have overcurrent protection if either the garage or house load (or the two combined) exceed whatever the service entrance is rated for.

Note that the 250A is somewhat an arbitrary figure. I think it would be appropriate capacity, although preliminary research I did indicates that PSO only offers 100, 200, or 400 amp service for residential.

Drawing is somewhat to scale.

Thanks in advance!

Nic
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  #2  
Old 01-22-13, 05:34 PM
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There's nothing technically wrong with either your long-term plan or your interim plan. If PSO is willing to do it, that, plus a permit or two, should be all you need to go ahead.

Yes, your choices are limited to 100, 200 and 400 amp services. Do a residential load calculation to see which will work for you. Now...

Where's the pizza???
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 01-22-13 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Emphasis added
  #3  
Old 01-22-13, 05:34 PM
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I have my house and shop separately metered and with their own main panels, so would that not be in the offing for you, too? I'd hate to be the one to rewire your house just to consolidate a breaker panel. Of course my shop has a bunch of stationary power tools in it, thus it's own main panel. If your garage is strictly that, a garage, I would come off my main panel in the house underground to the garage with a 60 amp run to a sub panel in the garage and have breakers for both 240 and 120 volt applications in case you wanted to weld or something.
 
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Old 01-22-13, 05:41 PM
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That is often done here but instead of a subpanel at the house an open breezeway (just a roof and sidewalk) is built between the garage and the house to carry all the NM-b to the house. Since the roof of the breezeway connects the garage to the house the garage is technically attached so no code violation.
 
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Old 01-22-13, 06:14 PM
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We have done picture #3 many times. You might have a minor up charge for the additional meter but it would likely be about $10

I suggest 200 amp. That will do you plenty good unless you are planning for electric heat or electric on-demand water heater. 200 amps is a lot of power!
 
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Old 01-22-13, 06:40 PM
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You must consult your local power company before you can make a final decision. Some companies won't allow a second service on the same property without there being a very good reason, such as, different electrical characteristics, separate billing to a separate person or if one service is residential and one is commercial. If you do get permission for two separate meters, you'll probably be paying more. Typically most power companies have progressive billing with lower rates the more you use. Also, each account usually has basic connection charges you'll probably be paying twice too. If one building, or the other, will eventually become a commercial business (pizza place) you may have to use a commercial meter socket. My area requires a lever type bypass in a 200 amp commercial socket. A commercial socket is also about 4 times more expensive.
 
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Old 01-22-13, 08:54 PM
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First off, thanks everyone for the replies.

Second off, I hope I didn't confuse you (specifically, CasualJoe) into thinking I was going to be running a commercial pizza place. Although I am a pizza fan... but that was just a crack at some old TV show title. No plans for commercial anything on this property.

Here are a few other answers/comments on your replies. And maybe some followup questions.

The garage is currently pretty much just a garage. BUt I've only lived here a few months and can't do much with just a single 20A circuit in there. Long-term, it's a project place as well. It's about 13' wide but 40' long, and although my truck would fit in twice bumper-to-bumper with a little room to squeeze between, I plan to only have one car max in there (generally my wife's, unless I'm working on another one).
The rest of the space will be utilized for man-cave activites. Currently no plans for welding, but I do some woodworking, would like to have a good air compressor, usually have music running. And a lot of light. Did I mention I like to make beer? I could easily have almost 50 amps running just in the 240V heating elements. I actually did a little math of everything I hope to have running (eventually) for beermaking processes and came up that the highest load likely would be about 98 amps. There could intermittantly be heavier loads but probably not any more continuously.

Also, the re-running of branch circuits in the house is something I've wanted to do anyway, whether or not the breaker panel moved. I wonder if the service is undersized anyway...THe house is 100 years old with an addition added in the late 1970s, total square footage is 3500, 2 HVAC systems, electric oven, stove, dryer. But I Can't find a service rating anywhere on the main panel, and doesn't appear to have a main breaker. The only label inside is covered with wires so I can't read it. Still some K&T wiring, which I've almost tripped over walking through the attic. I should probably start a separate thread for why I want to rewire the whole house.

Ray2047: I've thought of a breezeway but the layout is a bit weird, not sure how it would connect to the house without looking strange. That is something to keep in mind. Might be out of the budget range for the forseeable future, though.

Nashkat1: I'll do a residential load calc and see what I come up with. I found an Excel spreadsheet that supposedly performs this calculation for me but was dated 1997, so I'm not sure if anything significant has chagned since then in how we perform load calcs.

Thanks again for the help.

Nic
 
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Old 01-22-13, 10:06 PM
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I wonder if the service is undersized anyway...THe house is 100 years old with an addition added in the late 1970s, total square footage is 3500, 2 HVAC systems, electric oven, stove, dryer.
As you probably know, the square footage is interesting but it's the electrical draw that matters. My former house was built in 1908 and had about 3,500 ft.[SUP]2[/SUP] of conditioned space. By the time I finished rewiring and adding loads, it had a shiny new 200A service, and only spun the meter at a noticeable speed when the BIG new condensing unit kicked in.

Of course, the furnace, water heater, cookstove and clothes dryer all burned gas. I'm an electrician, and I don't use electricity to make heat, if I can help it.

But I Can't find a service rating anywhere on the main panel, and doesn't appear to have a main breaker. The only label inside is covered with wires so I can't read it.
So you don't know what size service you have? Look in the meter base for your MOPD, and/or look at the inspection report that you got before buying the place.

Still some K&T wiring, which I've almost tripped over walking through the attic.
I retained, and continued in service, some of the K&T wiring in my old house - mostly to see if the inspector would try to come up with some BS reason to try to make me replace it. (To his credit, he didn't.) Also, keeping the old wire in some places helped cut down on opening finished spaces. That said, I probably had 50 or 60 feet - maybe 100 feet max - of K&T left working, and I put a LOT of effort into making the transitions and ensuring a low-impedance path to earth everywhere. I lost count of how many feet of Romex I used -- I would pick up 500' for a weekend's work.

I found an Excel spreadsheet that supposedly performs this calculation for me but was dated 1997, so I'm not sure if anything significant has chagned since then in how we perform load calcs.
Probably not, but who knows. Here's one I like, from a source I trust: Residential-Load-Calculations---Mike-Holt-Enterprises. I'll be very surprised if it's not totally up-to-date.
 
  #9  
Old 01-23-13, 10:39 AM
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As you probably know, the square footage is interesting but it's the electrical draw that matters.
Yeah, I know, I know. Woe is me. I guess the point I was trying to make is that there's a lot of space to heat and cool and thus I have 2 HVACs... I need to go home and read the plates to see what they're rated at.

Of course, the furnace, water heater, cookstove and clothes dryer all burned gas. I'm an electrician, and I don't use electricity to make heat, if I can help it.
My furnaces are both gas, and water heater is gas. I would like to have gas dryer and cooktop/oven as well... but this house didn't come that way.... so those upgrades are another project for another day. The homebrewing though, I plan to fabricate an electric system (despite the fact that I've used strictly propane in the past, not to be confused with Strickland Propane)

So you don't know what size service you have? Look in the meter base for your MOPD, and/or look at the inspection report that you got before buying the place.
I didn't think to look at the meter base. You said "look in the meter base" does this mean I need to cut the PSO tag on it and open it up?

The inspector wrote 100A on the inspection report, but I followed him around during the majority of it (including when he opened the cover of the main breaker panel) and don't know where he got that figure from. I don't recall him verbally stating it, and I got the report a few days later and didn't think twice about it.

I retained, and continued in service, some of the K&T wiring in my old house - mostly to see if the inspector would try to come up with some BS reason to try to make me replace it.
I've read a lot of books and enough posts on here and come to the conclusion that simply having K&T is not neccesarily a reason to replace it...well aware of that. Maybe I'm just subconciously a freak and want a completely modern electrical system. I do know that a lot of of the K&T I've seen is covered by blown-in insulation, which I was under the impression was a no-no since the wire can't cool as effectively due to no open-air.

Probably not, but who knows. Here's one I like, from a source I trust: Residential-Load-Calculations---Mike-Holt-Enterprises. I'll be very surprised if it's not totally up-to-date.
I consider myself pretty computer savvy... but couldn't figure out how to make this work. Is that a document that require money from me before it will allow the entry of figures?

I'll try to find some time in the next few days to get the nameplate ratings off of everything and do a proper load calc. If I can find a well-written process, I don't mind doing the calc by hand.

Thanks again,

Nic
 
  #10  
Old 01-23-13, 10:47 AM
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You said "look in the meter base" does this mean I need to cut the PSO tag on it and open it up?
Absolutely not. Just look through the clear glass cover on the meter.
don't know where he got that figure [100 amp] from.
Probably from the main breaker handle.

Here's a load calc a little newer then yours and maybe easier to understand. Single Family Dwelling Load Calculator
 
  #11  
Old 01-23-13, 12:06 PM
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Thanks, Ray. I'll try out that calculator once I get the specs from everything.

Meter says the following:
SANGAMO TYPE J2S
15 AMPS
240 VOLTS
3 WIRE 1 PHASE
EXTENDED RANGE WATTHOUR METER
60 with a simple sine wave graphic, I assume this is Hertz
K[SUB]h[/SUB] 6

I assume 15 amps is not the service rating, so I guess you perform some sort of calculation to determine at least what the meter is capable of metering?
 
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Old 01-23-13, 12:22 PM
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I didn't think to look at the meter base. You said "look in the meter base" does this mean I need to cut the PSO tag on it and open it up?
No. You should have a main breaker either in your panel or behind a cover you can open at the meter base, but it's possible that you have a main lug panel. As Ray suggested, read the service information inside the meter.

I do know that a lot of of the K&T I've seen is covered by blown-in insulation, which I was under the impression was a no-no since the wire can't cool as effectively due to no open-air.
Not only that, if the insulation becomes damp the circuit could short.

I consider myself pretty computer savvy... but couldn't figure out how to make this work. Is that a document that require money from me before it will allow the entry of figures?
It shouldn't. It's an Excel template. It opens up automatically in Excel for me, and I can enter values into it.

Just for shiggles, I entered some values based on the information you've posted here, and it gave me an answer of a 100A service. It'll be interesting to seee what you get when you enter the real values.
 
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Old 01-23-13, 07:47 PM
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I hope I didn't confuse you (specifically, CasualJoe) into thinking I was going to be running a commercial pizza place.
I wasn't confused at all, you were the one to mention a pizza place.....

Nitronic


...and a pizza place.
 
  #14  
Old 01-25-13, 02:39 PM
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As luck would(n't) have it, I went to start looking at power ratings on everything, and the first thing I looked at was the Furnace/Evap/Blower, which is in the attic, and on its side where I can't find any label. Furnace is gas, so the only electrical load on here is the blower motor and I guess gas ignition (no pilot).

Is there any standard SWAG used if you can't find the plate? It plugs into either a 15 or 20A dedicated branch circuit. I haven't yet looked at its corresponding condensor outside for its rating. This system conditions the addition of the house, which is around 1500 sq ft.

The other HVAC (also gas on the furnace) is all outside in one box and conditions the remaining square footage, which is about 2000 sq ft. I don't anticipate any problems locating the label on it but who knows.
 
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Old 01-25-13, 07:34 PM
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Is there any standard SWAG used if you can't find the plate? It plugs into either a 15 or 20A dedicated branch circuit.
It's probably a 1/3 HP blower motor. Figure it as 1/2 HP and you are covered.
 
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Old 01-26-13, 08:14 PM
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Ray2047:

Here's the research results. I managed to find the specs of all the big stuff. I'm not totally sure what to enter where in the calculator you sent me.... so here's the overview of what I wrote down (by that I mean took photos of the plates).

What are "Small Appliance" branch circuits? I see the default/NEC min is 2. Is this intended to be 1 for Refrigerator, 1 for Microwave Oven? And then another for food disposer, additional fridge, etc

Correct me if I'm Wrong: Fastened Appliances, based on what I have listed here, would be Fridge 1, Fridge 2, Food Disposer, EOHD, Dishwasher, Clothes Washer. Clothes Dryer has its own category and thus doesn't go here. Oven/Range goes in its own category, and Microwave Oven is under 1.75 KW and doesn't go in either spot.

Since I have 2 HVAC units, do I sum up their like values and use them in that that calc as if they were a single HVAC unit? Meaning Total VA would be 8640 + 7392 = 16032.

On the same note, would largest motor just be compressor from HVAC 1, which would be 5232 VA, or should both compressors be combined, so adding 4848 VA from HVAC2 totals the compressor VA to 10080 VA.

Note-Water heater is Gas

HVAC 1
Contains Gas Furnace/Blower/Evap/Compressor/Condensor all in one box, outside.
Minimum Circuit Ampacity : 36 Amps, 240V

Compressor is 21.8 Amps RLA
Blower is 1 hp.

36A * 240V = 8640 VA

HVAC 2
Compressor/Condensor outside - Minimum Circuit Ampacity - 26.2 (Compressor at 20.2 Amps RLA), 240V

Gas Furnace/Blower/Evap in Attic - Max Amps: 9.2 (Blower motor at 1/3 hp.), 120V
26.2A * 240V = 6288 VA
9.2A * 120V = 1104 VA (Neutral=yes)
Total = 7392 VA

EOHD
1/2 hp
373 VA (Neutral=yes)

Oven/Range
10.5 KW, 240V

Fridge 1
6.5 Amps Full load
6.5A * 120V = 780 VA (Neutral=yes)

Fridge 2
8.5 Amps
8.5A * 120V = 1020 VA (Neutral=yes)

Dishwasher
10.0 Amps
10A * 120V = 1200 VA (Neutral=yes)

Microwave Oven
1.5 KW (Neutral=yes)

Clothes Washer
6 Amps
6A * 120V = 720 VA (Neutral=yes)

Electric Clothes Dryer
5600 Watts @ 240V

Food Disposer
1/2 hp
373 VA (Neutral=yes)
 
  #17  
Old 01-30-13, 10:24 AM
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I should probably add that I'm trying to size a subpanel for the garage, not sure how to include it in this load calculation.
 
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Old 01-30-13, 10:44 AM
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What are "Small Appliance" branch circuits? I see the default/NEC min is 2. Is this intended to be 1 for Refrigerator, 1 for Microwave Oven? And then another for food disposer, additional fridge, etc.
SABCs are the circuits for receptacles that small appliances such as toasters and mixers are plugged into. They are 20A circuits. Two are required in the kitchen, with GFCI protection, for the receptacles over the counter. They do not include any of the appliances you listed. To cut down on wire runs, a refrigerator is often powered by one of these before it goes to the counter and before it gets the GFCI protection. The controls for gas appliances are often powered in the same way.

Two SABCs are also required in the dining room, and another two in a breakfast ares, IIRC. These do not require GFCI protection.

HVAC 1
Contains Gas Furnace/Blower/Evap/Compressor/Condensor all in one box, outside.
Minimum Circuit Ampacity : 36 Amps, 240V

Compressor is 21.8 Amps RLA
Use RLA, or FLA, for your calculation.

HVAC 2
Compressor/Condensor outside - Minimum Circuit Ampacity - 26.2 (Compressor at 20.2 Amps RLA)
Same here.

I'm trying to size a subpanel for the garage, not sure how to include it in this load calculation.
The same way. Add up the loads.
 
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Old 01-30-13, 10:49 AM
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The residential load calculator I'm using is still showing a 100A service, based on your updated information, exclusive of the garage.
 
  #20  
Old 01-30-13, 04:37 PM
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Still not sure what I'm doing wrong. I ran one calc that came up with a Demand Load of 151 Amps, Neutral demand of 89 Amps, so minimum service of 175 Amps. From what I could figure, just the two air conditioning systems, electric dryer, and half of the stove/oven would be enough to push it over 100 Amps, and this is a very possible scenario in the summer time.

Am I missing something very elementary here?

Thanks for your patience in dealing with me!

Nic
 
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Old 01-30-13, 06:54 PM
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I'm only able to use the information you post here, so I'm kinda guessing.

The calculator I'm using wants the tonnage of the condensing units. Can you post that, please? I'm imagining that that might be one place I'm entering a low value.

On the other side, did you use the RLA value for your calculation?
 
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Old 01-30-13, 07:39 PM
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I do not know the tonnage; I just did trial and error until I got a VA closest to the rla *240 of my condensing units.


Is there a way I can determine tonnage without owner's manuals?
 
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Old 01-30-13, 07:56 PM
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Is there a way I can determine tonnage without owner's manuals?
You don't have the manuals? Just kidding - those would probably cover a range of sizes anyway.

You may be able to determine the tonnage of the units from their model numbers. Somewhere in the model number there should be "24" for a 2-ton unit, a "30" for a 2.5-ton unit, a "36" for a 3-ton unit, or a "42" for a 3.5-ton unit.
 
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Old 01-30-13, 08:07 PM
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HVAC1 model:
PY3GNAA48115AATP

Sooooo not sure on that. It's a beast, though.

HVAC2 Condensor model:
38TH0363000
so 3 Ton on that one?
 
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Old 01-30-13, 08:28 PM
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Yes, and probably 4 ton on the 1st one.

Calculating...

I found an error I'd made earlier: the calculator requires a value for the AHU, even if that value is 0, before it will include the condensing units. Makes sense - I just assumed it would default to that.

Anywho, plugging in your tonnage and correcting that error gave a result of...

Demand Load - 131A

Neutral Demand - 80A

Min. Service Required - 150A

You need a 200A main service, since there aren't 150A services available. That should cover whatever you want to add in the garage, too, unless you're planning on a full-scale metal-working shop out there.

Or a pizza place.
 
  #26  
Old 01-31-13, 07:37 AM
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That seems a little closer. No plans for metal-working shop, but with homebrewing activities I could easily have another 85 or so Amps running (estimated) out in the garage, so if I start seeing overload situations on 200A service, I may have to say no cooking or clothes drying during brewing! I'd hate to have to get 400A service. Besides the initial costs of upgrading, does the monthly bill have higher per KWH rates and/or higher basic service cost? It was mentioned in another thread that going over 200A service gets very expensive, and not just the upgrade costs.
 
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Old 01-31-13, 10:06 AM
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Yeah, it made more sense to me too, once I figured out what I needed to do to get the A/C loads included.

85 Amps seems high for the homebrewing. I want to check with my son when we see him on Saturday, and find out what his setup draws.

IDK about the higher cost for service at 400 Amps. I suspect it may be a POCO option. You could check with them.
 
  #28  
Old 01-31-13, 02:10 PM
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If it was JUST the brewing part, I would probalby have little more than lights, maybe computer, and heating element. And electrip pumps here and there, but they are minimual load. Heating elements are 5500W, 240V, so 23A load plus lights and pumps here and there I might have 30A total.

However, I'm sectioning (or planning to) part of the garage off dedicated to all beermaking activities, which includes the heating aspects as well as fermenting which can be controlled easily by using a freezer or refrigerator. Then I'm trying to make things a little more comfortable by heating the space in the winter and cooling in the summer. Most of the beers I've made ferment around 60F, so in the winter, heat would be needed to keep it from getting too cold (the same space heater used for warming up the rest of the area), and in teh summer, the fridge/freezers will keep it from getting too hot.

I probalby overestimated a 5KW space heater/cooler, but I wasn't sure what I really needed or wanted yet, so I figured that would be a good estimate on teh high side.

So all together, it's probably not a constant load of 85A, but if everything's on all at once, it's possible.

You can see an outline in my thread about sizing a subpanel... I think you posted in it as well. Anyway it outlines all the various electrical loads. I'd be interested to see the full load of your son's.
 
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Old 01-31-13, 04:02 PM
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Yeah, I'll let you know. He's just moving up to a dedicated area, temperature control and quick carbonation, so it sounds like it should be similar in load.
 
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Old 01-31-13, 08:31 PM
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You can see an outline in my thread about sizing a subpanel... I think you posted in it as well. Anyway it outlines all the various electrical loads.
Don't forget the pizza oven!
 
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Old 01-31-13, 10:19 PM
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Don't forget the pizza oven!
.
 
  #32  
Old 02-01-13, 03:27 PM
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Hey if I could crank out pizza and beer I'd be in business!

....and then have to get a commercial meter...
 
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