7500e unbonding question

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  #1  
Old 02-14-13, 06:24 PM
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7500e unbonding question

Mod Note: Separated from unbonding help on a generac GP7500E Generator

Dear all, I just purchased the 7500e and have been searching how to float the neutral. Thank you!!!!!

1. I did not receieve my generator yet but am preparing.

2. I read on another site that the over amp sensing circuit breakers on generator?) may be compromised and not work well with a ground fault and something about high voltage danger, on these "multi voltage" type Generac units when the ground and neutral are un bonded. Any hint of this issue? I suppose it would not show up until it (a short to frame or ground fault) happens?

3. With a 4 wire set up, no need to ground the frame/lug to a rod or water pipe, but was thinking to anyway since my ground/panel is 40' away. I am backconn thru a 30amp 2P breaker in a non bonded sub panel in my garage. Should I ground the gen frame for added safety?

thanks. Hope to be doing your mod next week and testing all out.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 02-14-13 at 08:31 PM. Reason: Clarify separation from earlier thread; formatting
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  #2  
Old 02-14-13, 06:58 PM
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Further to below is the danger comments i read of

If your generator outputs 230/120 volts, as evidenced by the four-wire L14-30 connection, then you are screwed, blued and tattooed as far as maintaining any semblance of a code approved connection using either a panel interlock or a non-neutral switching transfer switch or panel.
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you remove the neutral-ground bond on a dual voltage generator. Doing so greatly increases the hazard of higher voltage due to a line-to-ground fault.
Hummm...
Neutral bonded to ground at generator.
No GFCI on generator.
Non-neutral switching transfer switch (2 pole).
Then the question is if the ground to the generator could be left disconnected, but still connect the two hots and neutral to the transfer switch.
Then three questions follow...
Will this work? Yes!
Is this safe? Let's see... If the neutral connection was lost to the generator, then everything connected to ground in the house could become hot! (Like the metal frame on a range, refrigerator, washing machine, metal garage door, etc.) Even if these were not being powered by the generator.
Is this allowed by code? I'll leave that to the code gurus.
Would I do this? No! (I would use a neutral switching transfer switch and also connect the ground to the generator.)
Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...#ixzz2Kvqxvgnh

ANY COMMENTS PLEASE? Thx Stevec.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 02-14-13 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Clarification
  #3  
Old 02-14-13, 08:57 PM
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Welcome to the forums, Steve!

If you haven't already done so, reading the sticky note at the top of this forum, Congratulations! You have a Generator, may answer some of your questions.

In general, it good practice to remove the internal bond and to create a grounding electrode conductor for a standby or backup generator. OSHA requires that this be done on job sites.
 
  #4  
Old 02-14-13, 10:34 PM
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If you are connecting the generator to a SUB-panel how are you ensuring an absolute disconnect from the utility? Or are you using an interlock and ONLY powering the sub-panel?

Did you read my other comments on the linked thread?
 
  #5  
Old 02-15-13, 04:06 AM
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Furd. Thx. I will shut off my Main to the street/utility. A 50amp DP breaker feeds the sub panel in my garage. The sub has neutrals and grounds separated properly. I will back feed to it with a 30amp DP breaker from the Generac with the N/G bond removed with a 4 wire 10 gage, and also ground to my water OS water facet pipe with a good clamp wire to frame lug for added ground safety.

This should work ok and be safe. I will always shut off my Main and turn off most house CBs before plugging the gen cord in and switching the 30amp feeder CB on. Warm up the gen 1st also.

I think some of my below danger items I had read may be in play only IF the gen bond was not removed or if run stand alone once the bond was removed. I will remove the bond and use as a NON stand alone and use a N/G dummy plug in the gen duplex to bond the gen if used stand alone ever. I think this should render most potential shorts, wire disconnects or ground faults protected well per schematics I have reviewed for some scenarios.

I guess I will know soon enough if my 7500e Generac's "off" switch works with the un bonding mod done. Hopefully it will. Not sure if Generac kills the ignition connection or if they go to ground to kill it. No idea if a mag is used or battery. I assume a mag for ignition since their is no auto alt/gen battery charger on this elec start model just a plug in charger.

Any further hazard thoughts to my set up as to ground fault potential, shorts or wire off connection short or live ground scenarios are wanted/welcome! Not an electrician and know enough to be dangerous as they say...

i do know about the utility lineman issue and potential damage and danger if I do not turn off my Main first.
 
  #6  
Old 02-15-13, 04:45 AM
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There needs to be a fool-proof means of preventing backfeed like a transfer switch or interlock. Shutting off the main is neither of these nor is it Code compliant. You need to rethink your plan.
 
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Old 02-15-13, 08:21 AM
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I will always shut off my Main and turn off most house CBs before plugging the gen cord in and switching the 30amp feeder CB on.
Not to say you are a fool, but like pc boss mentioned, you need a fool proof way to disconnect from the grid. Relying on memory......
 
  #8  
Old 02-15-13, 08:38 AM
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I will relocate to 50amp dp cb of the main panel feeding the sub to the top of the main panel and install a mechanical interlock slide device. Thank you.
 
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Old 02-15-13, 10:04 PM
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I will relocate to 50amp dp cb of the main panel feeding the sub to the top of the main panel and install a mechanical interlock slide device.
Check with the AHJ to make sure that the interlock you're planning to use is one they'll approve.
 
  #10  
Old 02-16-13, 06:34 AM
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I think back feeding thru a breaker is not to code period even with an interconnect. Only separate breakers with a true transfer switch for $600 plus $800 to install is truly legal here.
 
  #11  
Old 02-16-13, 07:17 AM
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Must be a local thing. Backfeeding is allowed by the NEC. The breaker would need a retention device to hold it to the bus.
 
  #12  
Old 02-16-13, 08:32 AM
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From what I understand NEC is a code of practice. Local towns and states legislate which of these they allow from place to place depending on what they consider is of importance. It looks safe to me just not fool proof as someone could not know about the bond n g deal of the generator as an example of a pretty dangerous one, no ground would exit just a double size neutral... Thats why I was asking more questions at the thread start. Trying to check if there is more I need to know as to grounds faults etc. electricity works weird esp AC. there is a live and a neutral but unlike DC it pulses back and forth on both wires, but the neutral can be connected to ground and the live wire not or course. Confusing and can develop unsafe situation that are not known by all, thus codes and laws.

Any further danger info is welcome please.
 
  #13  
Old 02-18-13, 01:43 PM
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the neutral can be connected to ground
The incoming utility neutral must be bonded to a grounding electrode conductor at the service entrance. In the main distribution panel, if it houses the main overcurrent protection device, the branch circuit neutral conductors and the branch circuit equipment grounding conductors are allowed to share a single bus bar. Neutral and "ground" may not be connected to each other in any other location for any purpose.

The confusion often arises from the use of the word "ground" to refer to either the grounding electrode conductor or the equipment grounding conductors. Those are not the same, and have different functions, but people commonly refer to either as a, or the, ground.
 
  #14  
Old 02-18-13, 02:38 PM
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Thumbs up

Thank you nashkat1. I do understand all u mention on the neutral, equipment ground and earth ground.

A difference I see comparing the backfeed gen method (i. e. with the unbonded N and G in the the gen and using and the bonded N and G in the main panel), is that with the normal utility power in, the bond is right away and with the backfeed generator the bond is further away in the panel. Not sure what potential danger that may create. I know not to leave my generator neutral and ground connected when i shut off the gen and cb to the L1 and L2 to the gen. (If left connected with util turned on no power enters the shut off gen but a potential ground fault can be allowed).

Keep it coming. I am still in a double checking mode, until tues or wends when the gen arrives... I suppose even after testing ok I will keep checking for concerns since it will be disconn sitting idol most of the time... Power outage use only. Thank you.
 
  #15  
Old 02-18-13, 06:42 PM
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While I understand the argument that a bonded feed should be present in either case, I think that what people are missing in considering this is the purpose of the bond. The required bond of the utility neutral to earth as it enters the served structure is to provide a deflection for lightening and to provide a second return path to the original power source at the power plant. The second return path objective can not be served by establishing or maintaining a bond at the source of the power - the backup generator. The lightening protection can be served by frame grounding to earth.
 
  #16  
Old 02-19-13, 04:03 AM
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Thank you nashkat1. Ok I plan to earth ground the frame also so I should be ok there.

Can u please explain the bond function at the utility enter point and the second return path to the power plant more? With my not having the generator source bonded (and switching the neutral at the main to maintain my ground wire function) I am not allowing a second path back to my generator that the utility company tries to do by bonding at the power source supply as u mention. I don't understand this concept. Thank you for ur time. Much appreciated.
 
  #17  
Old 02-19-13, 12:16 PM
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Can u please explain the bond function at the utility enter point and the second return path to the power plant more?
I could, but I'm not sure there's any need to. Now that you've added
With my not having the generator source bonded (and switching the neutral at the main [and] I plan to earth ground the frame...
you've fully isolated your backup power source from the utility service. Many 120/240V transfer switches - possibly the majority of them - are two-pole switches that do not switch the grounded conductor. The three-pole switch that you're installing does switch that conductor too, so the issue is resolved, or moot.

to maintain my ground wire function) I am not allowing a second path back to my generator that the utility company tries to do by bonding at the power source supply
Two points:
  • Not sure how your switching the ungrounded conductor helps you maintain the function of your grounding conductor. With the bonded ground rod at the generator, you will have two grounding electrode conductors in two locations plus the equipment grounding conductors that are already part of the wiring in your house and that you are connecting to with the EGC in your generator supply cable, all tied together at your service entrance. And that's OK. The more robust the emergency drain system is, the better.

  • The POCO doesn't just try to create a second path to the power source through the service entrance bond, it does create one. FWIW
Sounds like you're good to go, but post back if you want to share or learn more.
 
  #18  
Old 02-19-13, 12:32 PM
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nashkat1,

1. Is the 2nd path back to the power source the grounded neutral and the first path back (the weak) ground through earth? I still do not understand what is meant by the 2nd path back.

2. I also mis-stated something. I am still back feeding (from garage non bonded sub panel thru a CB) and not switching the neutral at the panel. (If I did with no bond at the generator I wound have no N/G bond...) I am un-bonding the N/G at the generator, using a 4 wire back to my panel and using the N/G bond there.

3. I still wonder of the effects of a n/g bond 50' feet away. With the frame grounded to earth, ok there, but do not know other dangers that can exist, other than the bond is thru a 50' #8 ground wire only per say.

Sorry for all my ignorance, you may be getting a little tired of me...
 
  #19  
Old 02-19-13, 08:38 PM
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Sorry for all my ignorance, you may be getting a little tired of me...
I'm not tired of you. I also don't believe you're ignorant. I am tired of discussing the narrow issue of whether or not to have neutral and ground bonded in your generator when more important questions have not been answered.
  1. Do you now own a generator? If so, what make and model is it?

  2. Is the subpanel in your garage bonded to ground? Are the neutrals isolated in that subpanel?

  3. Are you planning to install a transfer switch that will switch the power coming into your subpanel from the main panel feed to the generator feed, and that will switch both hots and the neutral, or are you planning to backfeed the generator power into a breaker in the subpanel?

  4. Does your subpanel have a main breaker?

  5. Are all of the circuits that you want to supply in an emergency located in the subpanel, or are some or all of them in your main panel?

  6. Did Congratulations! You have a Generator answer some of your questions?
 
  #20  
Old 02-20-13, 03:39 AM
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Thanks again, please see answers below your questions in CAPS.

Do you now own a generator? If so, what make and model is it?
Generac GP7500E (I was able to unbond it but have a dummy 120 plug to rebond it if used alone unconnected to house ever)

Is the subpanel in your garage bonded to ground? Are the neutrals isolated in that subpanel?
NEUTRAL AND GROUND SEPERATED, NO N/G BOND. BOX IS GROUNDED. ALL BREAKERS IN SUB PANEL OFF EXCEPT GARAGE DOOR OPENER AND ONE LIGHT ALL CONNECTED SEPERATE GROUNDS AND NEUTRALS.

Are you planning to install a transfer switch that will switch the power coming into your subpanel from the main panel feed to the generator feed, and that will switch both hots and the neutral, or are you planning to backfeed the generator power into a breaker in the subpanel?
BACK FEEDING THROUGH A 30amp BREAKER. USING AN INTERLOCK. UTILITY NEUTRAL NOT SWITCHED. NEUTRAL AND GROJND BONDED IN MAIN PANEL. ONLY FURNACE GUN/CIRCULATOR PUMP (15amp), FRIG (20amp) OTHER 120leg, ONE TV AND LIGHT UPSTAIRS (15amp) AND CELLAR LIGHT CIRCUIT BREAKERS LEFT ON IN MAIN PANEL.

Does your subpanel have a main breaker?
NO. NOTE: I WILL UNPLUG AND TURN OFF A 30amp BREAKER IN THE SUB THAT TIES IN THE GEN WHEN NOT IN USE. NEUTRAL AND LINES TO GEN DISCONNECRED AS NOT USED.

Are all of the circuits that you want to supply in an emergency located in the subpanel, or are some or all of them in your main panel?
PER ABOVE SELECTED IN MAIN PANEL. PAINTED WHITE. ONLY MY WIFE AND I LIVE HERE. SHE WILL NOT EVER START OR USE A GENERATOR OR OPEN A PANEL. I WILL REMOVE ALL IF EVER SELLING THIS HOUSE PERIOD. I KNOW THEIR IS A RISK HERE AND THE GEN COULD BE OVERLOADED IF NOT CAREFUL.

Did Congratulations! You have a Generator answer some of your questions?
YES. JUST TRYING TO KNOW AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. WOULD STILL LIKE MY 3 LAST QUESTIONS ANSWERED SOMEHOW IF POSSIBLE. I ALSO WONDER ABOUT NOT BREAKING THE UTILITY NEUTRAL. I KNOW SYSTEMS LIKE THAT NEW DEVICE NEC APROVED, THAT TRANSFERS JUST AFTER/ON THE METER DOES not DISCONNECT OR SWITCH THE UTILITY NEUTRAL OFF.

I DID USE LOCKTITE ON MY GEN NEUTRAL CONNECTION. I DO HAVE NEW INDUSTRIAL TYPE BATTERIES IN ALL 3 CO2 DETECTORS AND GEN WILL BE RUN OUTSIDE UNDER A TARPED PLYWOOD LEANTO. CIRCUIT BREAKERS CAN BE FED EITHER DIRECTION SINCE AC IN FACT OCCILATES BOTH DIRECTIONS AS A NORMAL FUNCTION. I HAVE MECHANICALLY HELD THESE DOWN PER CODE. NOT A LEGISLATED LAW HERE BUT DID ANYWAY. I AM GROUNDING THE GEN FRAME TO A 12' DRIVEN EARTH GROUNDING ROD.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 02-20-13 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Format quote example
  #21  
Old 02-20-13, 06:28 AM
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BACK FEEDING THROUGH A 30amp BREAKER. USING AN INTERLOCK. UTILITY NEUTRAL NOT SWITCHED. NEUTRAL AND GROJND BONDED IN MAIN PANEL. ONLY FURNACE GUN/CIRCULATOR PUMP (15amp), FRIG (20amp) OTHER 120leg, ONE TV AND LIGHT UPSTAIRS (15amp) AND CELLAR LIGHT CIRCUIT BREAKERS LEFT ON IN MAIN PANEL.

Does your subpanel have a main breaker?
NO. NOTE: I WILL UNPLUG AND TURN OFF A 30amp BREAKER IN THE SUB THAT TIES IN THE GEN WHEN NOT IN USE. NEUTRAL AND LINES TO GEN DISCONNECRED AS NOT USED.
If the subpanel doesn't have a main breaker, how are you using an interlock? What's wrong with running a new line back to the main panel, with a proper interlock?
 
  #22  
Old 02-20-13, 06:45 AM
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Hi Justin,The Interlock is in the Main Panel in my cellar, locking out the main before the 30amp on the main panel, going to the garage sub panel, can be switched on. Yes, I could run a separate new 8 gauge 4 wire to the garage, but I think it is not needed. The new feeder would be a 50' 8 gauge 4 wire and would be costly to purchase. I may do this later if I need garage reg power. 1. The generator plugs in to a 4 wire receptacle in the garage, which I unplug when not using the generator, it is capped and locked.2. That is wired to a 30amp 2 pole (L1/L2) CB in the sub panel which I shut off when not in use. Also the Neutral and gen frame ground wire (Gen not N/G bonded) from the 4 wire receptacle are wired to the sub panel. They are separated.3. The power back feeds thru a #8, 4 wire to another 30amp CB 2P in the main panel. This 30amp 2 pole is interlocked with the main cb as mentioned above.
 
  #23  
Old 02-20-13, 11:59 AM
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please see answers below your questions in CAPS.
As a general rule, I do not reply to posts which are written in CAPS. It is the equivalent, to me, of answering someone who is yelling at me. I figure their ears are closed and I just walk away.

Given that you answered my questions, though, I will make an exception and assume that you used the caps to differentiate your answers from the questions. If so, please use the "Quote" box in the future. I did a quick edit of your post to show you how that turns out.

Your generator transfer needs to accomplished in a way that will fully and automatically disconnect the feed from the utility before or as the feed from the generator is connected, in one step. Your method does not appear to accomplish that.

Since the circuits you want to power are in your main panel, you should bring the power from the generator to that panel. At that point, there are two ways to safely make the transfer. One is to use a transfer switch to change the feeds. The other is to use an interlock that cannot be defeated by removing the panel cover to switch the main breaker off and a breaker that is fed from the generator on.

If you use either a two-pole transfer switch or an interlock, you should not have neutral and ground bonded in your generator. If you use a 3-pole transfer switch, you should have neutral and ground bonded in your generator.

I could run a separate new 8 gauge 4 wire to the garage, but I think it is not needed.
#10 AWG conductors are rated for 30A. That should be all that you need for the connection between your generator and your means of transfer, including the wire between your inlet and the transfer. If you're concerned about voltage drop, I wouldn't be. The voltage drop for #10 copper will be 2.63% or less to supply 30 amps for 100 feet on a 240 volt system.

If your generator has an overcurrent protection device that limits the load to 30A, you should be able to run the wiring inside if you choose to.

ONLY FURNACE GUN/CIRCULATOR PUMP (15amp), FRIG (20amp) OTHER 120leg, ONE TV AND LIGHT UPSTAIRS (15amp) AND CELLAR LIGHT CIRCUIT BREAKERS LEFT ON IN MAIN PANEL.
The rating of the breaker does not indicate the load. A load calculation will give you a better idea of which loads you will be able to supply.

I KNOW THEIR IS A RISK HERE AND THE GEN COULD BE OVERLOADED IF NOT CAREFUL.
In which case the circuit breaker in the generator should open the circuit and you would lose power. A PITA, but not a hazard.

WOULD STILL LIKE MY 3 LAST QUESTIONS ANSWERED SOMEHOW IF POSSIBLE.
All things are possible. Some are likelier than others.

1. Is the 2nd path back to the power source the grounded neutral and the first path back (the weak) ground through earth? I still do not understand what is meant by the 2nd path back.
Just that there are two paths. The POCO neutral feeder is the primary path.

2. I also mis-stated something. I am still back feeding (from garage non bonded sub panel thru a CB) and not switching the neutral at the panel. (If I did with no bond at the generator I wound have no N/G bond...) I am un-bonding the N/G at the generator, using a 4 wire back to my panel and using the N/G bond there.
Answered above.

3. I still wonder of the effects of a n/g bond 50' feet away. With the frame grounded to earth, ok there, but do not know other dangers that can exist, other than the bond is thru a 50' #8 ground wire only per say.
The connection between the grounding and bonding at the generator and the grounding and bonding at the service entrance? What difference does it make, really? Ideally they will all be connected, but each is complete on its own. the connection is also the same size as the rest of the conductors.
 
  #24  
Old 02-20-13, 12:31 PM
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Thanks to Nashkat1 I can finally end this thread. (Other than to comment on how my power up goes tonight... I suppose).

Nashkat1, thank you very much. Please note that I did use CAPS and no quote functions because I could not figure out how to do that on my tiny iPhone screen. I use the iPhone to allow myself a larger window to get more info. (Yes no PC on the internet at home or notepad. I don't like all the bug issues..) Waiting to get to my PC at work doubles the time. Thank you for dealing with the CAPS. I sort of knew the CAPS "shout" rule... but with the iPhone could not diff easily the Q/A as you stated. I'll work on that in the future.

As to all answers. Great. I feel much more comfortable with what I am doing. I will look into the more positive Transfer Switch you advocate, as many do, to do this correctly.
 
  #25  
Old 02-20-13, 12:45 PM
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I will look into the more positive Transfer Switch you advocate, as many do, to do this correctly.
So long as you transfer the power feeding into your main panel, and don't connect your generator wiring to the subpanel, that should give you a safe and effective outcome.
 
  #26  
Old 02-21-13, 05:35 PM
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Wink All set

Just another thank you and to let all know all tested out real good on power up. Output 121 and 122 vac on L1 and L2 and with selected CB and appliances etc drawing, 2 to 10amps and 7 to 14amps on legs respective, not incl whatever frig start surge x 4 of normal amps etc. Piece of mind finally. 8 to 12" of heavy snow and wind Sat/Sun maybe, bring it on. (Hope I did not jinx myself lol)

Thanks again. Gs7500e Generac.
 
  #27  
Old 02-21-13, 05:58 PM
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Jinx yourself? Now that you have spent the money and done the work the chances of you losing power for any appreciable time have fallen astronomically. It is the corollary to Murphy's Law, the more prepared you are for abnormal conditions the less likely you are to ever experience those conditions.
 
  #28  
Old 02-21-13, 06:09 PM
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Furd,

Yes, so true. I'll put my plow on and face it west to prepare/scare crow the snow away, and get 15 gal of fuel canned to prepare scare the power to stay on.

Take that Murphy. Feels good to be ready.
 
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