WIRING IN A NEW OUTLET

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  #1  
Old 02-05-01, 10:30 PM
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Lightbulb

OK HERE WE GO: i have a outlet 3prong in a bedroom controled by a switch at the switch is a white wire and a black wire connected too the terminals no other wires in this box(these wires seem too be the new romex type). At the outlet is two sets of wires the old clothe type two black wires connected with a wire nut. two white wires on one side of the outlet and a red wire on the other side no other wires in this box none! now i wanted too run a new wire too this outlet to supply a new outlet higher up on the wall going too a tv that is on a wall mount (wanted a nice finish look) but now im confused with this wirng details can you help? thanksjoe
 
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  #2  
Old 02-06-01, 07:14 AM
J
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Does this switch control both halves of the outlet, or only one half? Does the outlet have either or both of the tabs connecting the top and bottom broken out? Does the switch control anything else?
 
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Old 02-06-01, 07:27 AM
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this switch only controls this outlet and both sides of the outlet wok off the swicth
 
  #4  
Old 02-06-01, 08:12 AM
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This wiring worries me, so I'd be suspicious of everything. These wires do not run straight from the outlet to the switch, so this makes diagnosis harder.

You need to do some testing with a multimeter or a circuit tester. You have no ground, so this makes it harder.

(1) Turn off the circuit breaker.
(2) Disconnect all wires from the outlet, but remember where they were.
(3) Disconnect the two black wires from each other.
(4) Carefully separate all the wires.
(5) Turn the circuit breaker back on.
(6) Turn the wall switch "off".
(7) Test for voltage between one black wire and all of the other wires.
(8) Test for voltage between the other black wire and all of the other wires.
(9) One of the two black wires should always test dead to all wires (call this black#2), and the other black wire should show voltage to at least some other wire (call this black#1).
(10) Each of the other wires that showed voltage to black#1 is a neutral wire. Please tell me which wires these are.

Also tell me whether the outlet itself provides an electrical path between the two screws which held the white wires. You should be able to tell by visual inspection.

Also tell me whether all five wires in the outlet box are cloth covered, or whether any of them are Romex wiring.
 
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Old 02-06-01, 08:48 AM
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so i take a circuit tester with one lead to a black wire and ohter lead to a white wire one white wire at a time then the other black wire toothe white wires then the black too red correct? and when i connect the circuit tester and it lights that means the black is hot right?
 
  #6  
Old 02-06-01, 11:18 AM
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Yes, yes, and yes.
 
  #7  
Old 02-06-01, 04:55 PM
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i think i got it the switch is end of the run switch where white is actually balck even though its not marked but i dont understand why the put that white wire on the side with the other white wire wouldnot this short it out?
 
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Old 02-06-01, 05:35 PM
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Your question is exactly my question, and exactly why I said the wiring worries me. Remember my question, "Also tell me whether the outlet itself provides an electrical path between the two screws which held the white wires. You should be able to tell by visual inspection."

You must make the tests I have recommended. You cannot assume that a white wire is a neutral, nor can you assume that a black wire is hot. Whoever wired this outlet was obviously marching to his own drummer.

Please post back with your results.
 
  #9  
Old 02-06-01, 08:11 PM
Wgoodrich
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Sounds to me like they have power in the receptacle with the black wired through to the switch by way of the black wire and the white wire coming back as a switch leg to power the receptacle.

If this is true they were legal if installed before 99 but not legal after 99 by the NEC. Switch leg now must have the white power the switch and the black power the fixture. The white is no longer allowed to act as the switch's return path, but it was approved before 99.

Wg
 
  #10  
Old 02-07-01, 07:08 AM
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It's not the black wires that worry me. It's the white wires. And maybe that red wire.
 
  #11  
Old 02-07-01, 04:07 PM
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i did i qiuck check with a led circuit tester the one with the 3 lights that checks for a open ground, open neutral, open hot, hot/grd revers, hot/nuetral reverse, and it came up with the lights showing correct ill ave too do johns test this wekend when im off but i ran into a another problem with a nother outlet with this led checker it came up open ground but the outlet has the old stylye wiring clothe with 2 wires and no ground so thats why right ? again thanks see you this weekend
 
  #12  
Old 02-07-01, 07:59 PM
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Yes. An ungrounded outlet will show up on your tester as open ground. This is normal.

Of course, now I have another worry about this original outlet we're talking about. You say that it showed correct wiring (including grounding), but you only mentioned black, red and white wires in the box. How is this outlet grounded? You didn't mention any wires connected to the grounding screw, and you didn't mention any bare or green wires. Is this a metal box connected with conduit? Is something connected to this outlet's green grounding screw??????? Is it one of those wires you've already mentioned? You did say that there were "no other wires in this box."
 
  #13  
Old 02-08-01, 09:00 AM
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there is no ground wire too the oulet in this box but im not sure if tis aself grounding outlet
 
  #14  
Old 02-08-01, 02:06 PM
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The box is metal, right?
 
  #15  
Old 02-08-01, 03:59 PM
Wgoodrich
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A self grounding receptacle is only approved to be used when the box is steel and when there is a grounding conductor of some type, grounding wire, metal conduit in contact with the panel.

A self grounding receptacle does no good without a path to the equipment grounding bar in the panel.

Wg
 
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