first post -- code questions

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  #1  
Old 05-25-13, 09:56 PM
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first post -- code questions

Hi all,

I would like to add a couple of outside outlets in the backyard. The kitchen is right next to the backyard. The problem is that there is no reasonable path between the main panel on the other side of the house and the kitchen.

Can I re-purpose a 3 #12 w/G MWB circuit (that presently serves the dishwasher and an under-sink duplex for the garbage disposal) to power a sub-panel in a cupboard? And then run four 20A circuits from this sub-panel to dishwasher, disposal duplex, and two outside duplexes?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Saltpeter in Los Angeles
 
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Old 05-25-13, 10:34 PM
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Welcome to the forums!

Can I re-purpose a 3 #12 w/G MWB circuit (that presently serves the dishwasher and an under-sink duplex for the garbage disposal) to power a sub-panel in a cupboard? And then run four 20A circuits from this sub-panel to dishwasher, disposal duplex, and two outside duplexes?
Maybe, but why would you want to do that and have to allow all the clearances that would require?

You don't need a subpanel to do what you want to do. Just mount a J-box - I would use a deep 11-B box, which is a box that is 4-11/16" square - and splice the loads inside that to the two 20A circuits you have. All you're adding is the intermittent loads on the weather resistant GFCI receptacles with in-use covers out in the yard. The circuits should hold that.

Two quick questions: How are you planning to run the wiring to the new receptacles? And how and where are you planning to mount them?
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 05-26-13 at 12:07 AM.
  #3  
Old 05-26-13, 04:42 AM
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I'm fairly certain that appliance circuits in the kitchen are dedicated by code and therefore not allowable to be supplies for other purposes than which intended.
 
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Old 05-26-13, 05:35 AM
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I doubt that you would be able to supply the 4 new circuits without problems since the circuit is so limited. Feeders need to be sized for the loads they are expected to serve. You would also need to find a way to refeed the DW and GD. Also the instructions for many appliances call for a dedicated circuit. Even if you could combine the DW and GD into one circuit that only gives you 20 amps to feed 4 circuits. Not a plan I would ever try to sell to one of my customers.
 
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Old 05-26-13, 06:08 AM
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What are you planing to run outside that you need two circuits? You could likely combine the dishwasher and disposal to one circuit, and use the other for your outside receptacles.
 
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Old 05-26-13, 02:40 PM
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OP responds...

[A] Thanks Nashkat1.

I would rather give up my assumption that DW and GD need dedicated circuits, but am not sure about code requirements. Extending the circuits with a J-box would be much simpler. I'd use the recommended outlets and covers.

I envision running the wiring in the space under the sink counter in the wall -- not too may studs to go through to get to the outside stucco. There might be a J-box above the counter, next to the switch box for the disposal. It depends on the best place to access the 3 #12.

What about using some silicone bonding adhesive to glue the outside two-gang box to the stucco, with a long screw into a stud?

[B] Thanks SoyBomb.

The need for dedicated circuits was what was behind by idea of a sub-feed panel. I will look through the code some more for GD and DW requirements.

Instead, what about extending one or two of the above-kitchen-counter outlets? The DW and GD are predictably in use or not in use. With my wife cooking up a storm in the kitchen, what plug-in appliances are using what circuits are less clear.

[C] Thanks pcboss.

I was thinking that I have 2x 20A for four circuits. I am used to plugging an extension cord into the GD outlet and running it out the back door for temporary backyard power. I did find code section 225.39(B) re minimum 30A feeder rating for two x two circuits.

[D] Thanks Tolyn_Ironhand.

Backyard possibilities: Small tools when the backyard become a project workshop; hedge clippers, temporary lighting for an evening party; a soil tiller; vacuum cleaner.

Thank you for all your thoughts and recommendations.
 
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Old 05-26-13, 09:10 PM
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What about using some silicone bonding adhesive to glue the outside two-gang box to the stucco, with a long screw into a stud?
I would use two screws to mount the weather proof 2-gang box and use silicone caulk to seal the top and two sides where it meets the house - but not the bottom. I would also use a weatherproof connector to bring the cable in through.

Instead, what about extending one or two of the above-kitchen-counter outlets?
Nope. No way. Fuhgeddaboutit. Those may not serve anything except the small appliances on the countertop and a couple of other specifically named loads in the kitchen.

The need for dedicated circuits was what was behind by idea of a sub-feed panel. I will look through the code some more for GD and DW requirements.
If you find that, will you let us know where you think it is? Last I heard, neither could be on either of the SABCs but nothing said they couldn't share one circuit.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 05-27-13 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 05-27-13, 07:13 AM
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Backyard possibilities: Small tools when the backyard become a project workshop; hedge clippers, temporary lighting for an evening party; a soil tiller; vacuum cleaner.
This should run fine on a single circuit. Granted you are one person and will likely run one item at a time.

I did find code section 225.39(B) re minimum 30A feeder rating for two x two circuits.
That code article is referring to the design and rating of a disconnect, not about circuit rating. Re-read the last part of the sentence:

"the feeder or branch circuit disconnecting means shall have a rating of not less than 30 amps"
 
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Old 05-27-13, 03:03 PM
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To clarify re: 225.39(B) I was thinking this section meant I would need a 30A DP breaker in the main panel with 3 #10 w/G to the sub-panel and would allow 2x 20A breakers on each hot. But I am not going to do this.

DW: 6.0A (motor) plus 6.5A (other - heater I presume)
GD: 6.2A

So I cannot put these on one circuit.

What appears to make sense is to extend the GD circuit to the outside. Al though the GD circuit may be enough for the backyard, can the DW circuit be extended in principal?

It looks like DW + GD can be on the same circuit as discussed in 550.18(B), just not in my case.
 
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Old 05-27-13, 03:18 PM
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Article 550.18(B) deals with sizing the service or feeder for the mobile home. It would not apply in this situation. You are dealing with branch circuits.
 
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Old 05-27-13, 06:35 PM
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DW: 6.0A (motor) plus 6.5A (other - heater I presume)
GD: 6.2A

So I cannot put these on one circuit.
If it is a 20 amp circuit, yes you can. I don't recall the section of the code, but the only one that applies you is the circuit needs to be sized to handle the load served.
6 + 6.5 + 6.2 = 18.7A None of which is a continuous load.
 
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