first post -- code questions
#1
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first post -- code questions
Hi all,
I would like to add a couple of outside outlets in the backyard. The kitchen is right next to the backyard. The problem is that there is no reasonable path between the main panel on the other side of the house and the kitchen.
Can I re-purpose a 3 #12 w/G MWB circuit (that presently serves the dishwasher and an under-sink duplex for the garbage disposal) to power a sub-panel in a cupboard? And then run four 20A circuits from this sub-panel to dishwasher, disposal duplex, and two outside duplexes?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Saltpeter in Los Angeles
I would like to add a couple of outside outlets in the backyard. The kitchen is right next to the backyard. The problem is that there is no reasonable path between the main panel on the other side of the house and the kitchen.
Can I re-purpose a 3 #12 w/G MWB circuit (that presently serves the dishwasher and an under-sink duplex for the garbage disposal) to power a sub-panel in a cupboard? And then run four 20A circuits from this sub-panel to dishwasher, disposal duplex, and two outside duplexes?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Saltpeter in Los Angeles
#2
Welcome to the forums!
Maybe, but why would you want to do that and have to allow all the clearances that would require?
You don't need a subpanel to do what you want to do. Just mount a J-box - I would use a deep 11-B box, which is a box that is 4-11/16" square - and splice the loads inside that to the two 20A circuits you have. All you're adding is the intermittent loads on the weather resistant GFCI receptacles with in-use covers out in the yard. The circuits should hold that.
Two quick questions: How are you planning to run the wiring to the new receptacles? And how and where are you planning to mount them?
Can I re-purpose a 3 #12 w/G MWB circuit (that presently serves the dishwasher and an under-sink duplex for the garbage disposal) to power a sub-panel in a cupboard? And then run four 20A circuits from this sub-panel to dishwasher, disposal duplex, and two outside duplexes?
You don't need a subpanel to do what you want to do. Just mount a J-box - I would use a deep 11-B box, which is a box that is 4-11/16" square - and splice the loads inside that to the two 20A circuits you have. All you're adding is the intermittent loads on the weather resistant GFCI receptacles with in-use covers out in the yard. The circuits should hold that.
Two quick questions: How are you planning to run the wiring to the new receptacles? And how and where are you planning to mount them?
Last edited by Nashkat1; 05-26-13 at 12:07 AM.
#4
I doubt that you would be able to supply the 4 new circuits without problems since the circuit is so limited. Feeders need to be sized for the loads they are expected to serve. You would also need to find a way to refeed the DW and GD. Also the instructions for many appliances call for a dedicated circuit. Even if you could combine the DW and GD into one circuit that only gives you 20 amps to feed 4 circuits. Not a plan I would ever try to sell to one of my customers.
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OP responds...
[A] Thanks Nashkat1.
I would rather give up my assumption that DW and GD need dedicated circuits, but am not sure about code requirements. Extending the circuits with a J-box would be much simpler. I'd use the recommended outlets and covers.
I envision running the wiring in the space under the sink counter in the wall -- not too may studs to go through to get to the outside stucco. There might be a J-box above the counter, next to the switch box for the disposal. It depends on the best place to access the 3 #12.
What about using some silicone bonding adhesive to glue the outside two-gang box to the stucco, with a long screw into a stud?
[B] Thanks SoyBomb.
The need for dedicated circuits was what was behind by idea of a sub-feed panel. I will look through the code some more for GD and DW requirements.
Instead, what about extending one or two of the above-kitchen-counter outlets? The DW and GD are predictably in use or not in use. With my wife cooking up a storm in the kitchen, what plug-in appliances are using what circuits are less clear.
[C] Thanks pcboss.
I was thinking that I have 2x 20A for four circuits. I am used to plugging an extension cord into the GD outlet and running it out the back door for temporary backyard power. I did find code section 225.39(B) re minimum 30A feeder rating for two x two circuits.
[D] Thanks Tolyn_Ironhand.
Backyard possibilities: Small tools when the backyard become a project workshop; hedge clippers, temporary lighting for an evening party; a soil tiller; vacuum cleaner.
Thank you for all your thoughts and recommendations.
I would rather give up my assumption that DW and GD need dedicated circuits, but am not sure about code requirements. Extending the circuits with a J-box would be much simpler. I'd use the recommended outlets and covers.
I envision running the wiring in the space under the sink counter in the wall -- not too may studs to go through to get to the outside stucco. There might be a J-box above the counter, next to the switch box for the disposal. It depends on the best place to access the 3 #12.
What about using some silicone bonding adhesive to glue the outside two-gang box to the stucco, with a long screw into a stud?
[B] Thanks SoyBomb.
The need for dedicated circuits was what was behind by idea of a sub-feed panel. I will look through the code some more for GD and DW requirements.
Instead, what about extending one or two of the above-kitchen-counter outlets? The DW and GD are predictably in use or not in use. With my wife cooking up a storm in the kitchen, what plug-in appliances are using what circuits are less clear.
[C] Thanks pcboss.
I was thinking that I have 2x 20A for four circuits. I am used to plugging an extension cord into the GD outlet and running it out the back door for temporary backyard power. I did find code section 225.39(B) re minimum 30A feeder rating for two x two circuits.
[D] Thanks Tolyn_Ironhand.
Backyard possibilities: Small tools when the backyard become a project workshop; hedge clippers, temporary lighting for an evening party; a soil tiller; vacuum cleaner.
Thank you for all your thoughts and recommendations.
#7
What about using some silicone bonding adhesive to glue the outside two-gang box to the stucco, with a long screw into a stud?
Instead, what about extending one or two of the above-kitchen-counter outlets?
The need for dedicated circuits was what was behind by idea of a sub-feed panel. I will look through the code some more for GD and DW requirements.
Last edited by Nashkat1; 05-27-13 at 02:45 PM.
#8
Backyard possibilities: Small tools when the backyard become a project workshop; hedge clippers, temporary lighting for an evening party; a soil tiller; vacuum cleaner.
I did find code section 225.39(B) re minimum 30A feeder rating for two x two circuits.
"the feeder or branch circuit disconnecting means shall have a rating of not less than 30 amps"
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To clarify re: 225.39(B) I was thinking this section meant I would need a 30A DP breaker in the main panel with 3 #10 w/G to the sub-panel and would allow 2x 20A breakers on each hot. But I am not going to do this.
DW: 6.0A (motor) plus 6.5A (other - heater I presume)
GD: 6.2A
So I cannot put these on one circuit.
What appears to make sense is to extend the GD circuit to the outside. Al though the GD circuit may be enough for the backyard, can the DW circuit be extended in principal?
It looks like DW + GD can be on the same circuit as discussed in 550.18(B), just not in my case.
DW: 6.0A (motor) plus 6.5A (other - heater I presume)
GD: 6.2A
So I cannot put these on one circuit.
What appears to make sense is to extend the GD circuit to the outside. Al though the GD circuit may be enough for the backyard, can the DW circuit be extended in principal?
It looks like DW + GD can be on the same circuit as discussed in 550.18(B), just not in my case.
#10
Article 550.18(B) deals with sizing the service or feeder for the mobile home. It would not apply in this situation. You are dealing with branch circuits.
#11
DW: 6.0A (motor) plus 6.5A (other - heater I presume)
GD: 6.2A
So I cannot put these on one circuit.
GD: 6.2A
So I cannot put these on one circuit.
6 + 6.5 + 6.2 = 18.7A None of which is a continuous load.