In-ground Pool pump / Timer wiring

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  #1  
Old 06-19-13, 07:57 PM
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In-ground Pool pump / Timer wiring

Hi all:
I'm in the process of moving the pool equipment which services my in-ground pool and I have a couple questions related to the electrical aspect of the move.

After inspection I determined that some of the wiring is not up to current code.
As I disassembled deck boxes, timers and other equipment I took pictures and documented the existing state of install.

This post will be dedicated to the wiring of two daisy-chained Intermatic timers and the pool filter / pool cleaner pumps they control.

In reading an old post here I learned that two outlets can be daisy chained off a 2 pole / 220 breaker. The thread was specific to the powering of a drill press and table saw. However, this being a pool application with direct connect and timers involved I want to be sure all is code compliant.

- First off there was no ground run to the timers or motors.

- Second, the 2 pole, 20 Amp, 220v breaker is not a GFCI breaker.

I just purchased a replacement GFCI breaker to replace the standard original.

My plans are to tap off the ground wire that comes from the panel and is present in the junction box where the two feeds branch off to the timers.

I also want to be sure on the breaker hook-up.
I plan on feeding the hots off the load terminals, which is the same as the standard breaker. (It doesn't appear I will need to utilize the Load Neutral)
From what I understand, in order for the GFCI to sense an imbalance the pigtail will need to be connected to the Neutral bus bar in the panel. Is this correct?

Also, I have read quite a few people with similar setups where the GFCI would trip because it was providing power to Timer circuitry and the motors. It has been suggested that one might have to run a separate feed to the Timer motors. Does anyone have advice on this?

Add: The pool pump is Thermally Protected and 1 1/2hp. The pool cleaner pump is also Thermally Protected and 3/4 HP.

Attached is a simplified image of the current configuration. I hope this illustrates my situation more clearly.

Thanks in advance for feedback.
 
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  #2  
Old 06-19-13, 10:21 PM
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My plans are to tap off the ground wire that comes from the panel and is present in the junction box where the two feeds branch off to the timers.

I also want to be sure on the breaker hook-up.
I plan on feeding the hots off the load terminals, which is the same as the standard breaker. (It doesn't appear I will need to utilize the Load Neutral)
From what I understand, in order for the GFCI to sense an imbalance the pigtail will need to be connected to the Neutral bus bar in the panel. Is this correct?
The subpanel should have the neutrals together on a bus that is mechanically and electrically isolated from all paths to ground, including the panel enclosure. The grounds should be on a second bus which is bonded to the panel enclosure, to the equipment grounding conductor from your main panel and, since this is pool equipment, to a separately derived source of ground.

Your diagram appears to show two hot wires going to each timer and pump. There is no neutral shown. Do your pumps draw 240V?

Tech Note: 220V power is not available for residential service in the US. It is 120/240V power.
 
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Old 06-19-13, 10:39 PM
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Since you have an inground pool..... you must have # 8 green bonding wiring to your filter and pump. That must also be addressed.
 
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Old 06-20-13, 06:16 AM
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Nashkat: I do see a ground lug attached to the wall of the sub panel with ground wires attached. The lug has a "feed" which appears to originate from the Main panel. The ground wire I'd like to tap into for these motors originates from this lug and is used as a ground for the convenience outlet, pool and spa niche lights.

The two motors are marked 115/230 and are internally wired for the higher voltage.

PJmax: The bonding was in place and will be preserved and utilized for the relocation.
 
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Old 06-20-13, 02:00 PM
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So here's what I'm thinking....
 
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Old 06-20-13, 03:20 PM
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The two motors are marked 115/230 and are internally wired for the higher voltage.
Thanks for the clarification. You, of course, will be feeding them 240V.

Is the neutral bus mechanically and electrically isolated from all paths to ground, including the subpanel enclosure?

At the green dot you've labeled "Panel Ground," are the grounding conductor from your main panel and the one from your separately derived path to ground (one or two ground rods) both bonded together and to the panel enclosure?

I would run a new grounding conductor into the subpanel and bond it with the others there. I'm not sure your jurisdiction would even allow it to be tapped into a conductor for a different load. If you were allowed to do it, it would need to be done inside a box, not out in the open as your drawing seems to indicate.

Assuming the conductors that feed power to the timers and the pumps are pulled in conduit, why not just pull a green-insulated #12 AWG wire through the same conduit?
 
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Old 06-21-13, 12:08 PM
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Is the neutral bus mechanically and electrically isolated from all paths to ground, including the subpanel enclosure?

Yes

At the green dot you've labeled "Panel Ground," are the grounding conductor from your main panel and the one from your separately derived path to ground (one or two ground rods) both bonded together and to the panel enclosure?

There is a ground lug in the main panel. This feeds to the ground lug in the sub panel. Both are bolted to the panel enclosure they are locate in. These lugs are where all the ground connections go in each box. *

I would run a new grounding conductor into the subpanel and bond it with the others there. I'm not sure your jurisdiction would even allow it to be tapped into a conductor for a different load. If you were allowed to do it, it would need to be done inside a box, not out in the open as your drawing seems to indicate.

Assuming the conductors that feed power to the timers and the pumps are pulled in conduit, why not just pull a green-insulated #12 AWG wire through the same conduit?


Unfortunately the diagram is a bit oversimplified.

* The ground wire for the convenience outlet and two niche lights originates from the ground lug in the sub panel. It goes through grey PVC conduit in my basement, through a wall , underground and up into a junction box attached to the bottom of the first timer. It passes through this junction box (continuously and unbroken) and onto the deck box where it is attached to the deck box ground lug. I wanted to "tap" into this ground wire where it passes through the junction box at the timer. Running a another ground wire through the conduit will be a bear. However, if I have to do it I will.
 

Last edited by RickNJ; 06-21-13 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 06-24-13, 09:46 AM
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Bump...if there are any additional questions I can answer please let me know.
 
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Old 06-24-13, 11:02 AM
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Rick, a ground lug is for one conductor. The equipment ground for the pump circuit should be run with the circuit conductors.
 
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Old 06-24-13, 11:35 AM
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Thank you, PCboss. Jut to clarify, I will need to run a ground wire from the Ground "lug" in the Sub Panel to each timer and motor? Or is one enough where it will daisy chain with the other two wires?

Thanks again for you patience.

Pics attached to help illustrate...
 
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Old 06-24-13, 12:19 PM
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You could run one ground sized for the largest circuit involved. If both are 20 amps you can use one #12.

That ground lug is for one conductor. You cannot use it the way it currently is shown in the photo. You could add a ground buss to the panel.
 
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Old 06-24-13, 01:13 PM
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This is the way it was when I moved in. I will look into getting a ground bus as you suggest. I want it all to be done right.

Thanks again!
 
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Old 06-25-13, 02:29 AM
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Also, I have read quite a few people with similar setups where the GFCI would trip because it was providing power to Timer circuitry and the motors. It has been suggested that one might have to run a separate feed to the Timer motors. Does anyone have advice on this?
New, modern, GFCI breakers should have no problem with properly functioning equipment. If it trips, try each load seperately. An isolated load that trips a GFCI needs to be repaired or replaced.

Be careful with seperate feeds. For pools (680), GFCI and nonGFCI wires may not be in the same conduit.

Cleaner pumps are often booster pumps. A booster pump running when the filter pump is off can be damaged. A neat trick is to wire the line side of the booster timer to the load side of the filter timer. But you then have to bring a set of "always on" wires to the booster timer and wire nut them to the booster timer's timeclock leads.
 
  #14  
Old 06-25-13, 07:26 AM
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Glenn, Thank you for the info.

All wiring going through the conduit will be GFCI protected.

The thing with the robot cleaner/polaris pump is I may not use it at all. I also have a 12v powered cleaner and will likely use that. I just want to keep the capability intact should I decide to go back to a pump based cleaner.

Thanks again!
 
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