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Power Relay Question, controlling AC Motor with DC wireless winch controller.

Power Relay Question, controlling AC Motor with DC wireless winch controller.

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  #1  
Old 07-03-13, 12:51 PM
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Power Relay Question, controlling AC Motor with DC wireless winch controller.

I have a 1HP Leeson motor which I currently control using an Allen Bradley Bulletin 350 Drum switch mounted to the motor. I have a wireless forward/reverse winch control that I would like to use on this set-up. The winch control is DC and I was wondering if I could use a power relay to connect the winch control receiver to the motor. I am running the motor with 110VAC so I believe I would require a DPDT relay with 2x20A contacts and a 12VDC coil. I believe that would work however I'm looking for some re-assurance before I go ahead and order the relay. Note: the relay I found (linked below) will support up to 40A although I would never use that amount. I plan on connecting the relay to a 110VAC to 12VDC adapter.

Motor: Leeson 1HP Single Phase, Reversible (will try to update with link)
AB Drum Switch: Allen Bradley Drum Switch
Wireless Winch Controller: Electric Winch Wireless Remote Control System
Relay: AD-PR40-2C-12D

Am I on the right track?

Thank you for any help you might provide.
 

Last edited by Matt723; 07-03-13 at 01:10 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-03-13, 04:38 PM
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Changing the rotation of a single-phase motor is effected by changing the connection between the line-leads and the leads of the start winding. With "L1" & "L2" as the line-leads, and "S1" & "S2" as the leads of the start winding , the "Forward" connection could be "L1"-to-"S1" and "L2"-to "S2" ; "Reverse" would be "L1" - to - "S2" and "L2"-to- "S1".

This is possible with two 4-pole , single-throw relays, one a "Forward" relay and one a "Reverse" relay. In each relay , 2 poles connect the 2 leads of the "Run" winding to "L1" & "L2", and 2 poles connect the 2 leads of the "Start" winding to "L1" & "L2".

One relay will connect "L1"-to "S1" and "L2 -to- "S2"; the other relay will connect "L1"-to - "S2" and "L2"- to - "S1"
 
  #3  
Old 07-03-13, 07:03 PM
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You could do it with three DPST relays. One relay would supply the run winding which is always the same. This relay would be activated in both directions. Relay #2 would be forward relay and connect the start winding in one direction and relay #3 would reverse the start winding connections.

The relay you linked to will work but you'll need three of them. They are kind of heavy duty for this application but as such they will last longer if you plan to use this winch a lot.
 
  #4  
Old 07-03-13, 07:54 PM
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Thank you both for such great information!

Can you link to or recommend the relays you would use for your solutions? I am in a small town in Canada and I will need to order online since I have no local suppliers.

Also managed to find a link to my motor. Leeson 1HP Motor/

Thank you so much for your help with this!
 
  #5  
Old 07-03-13, 08:03 PM
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I am out on the road.....I'll post some part numbers and a pictorial diagram later tonight.
 
  #6  
Old 07-04-13, 01:12 AM
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That company has some great products. I looked around for other relays and you should probably stay with them. That remote that comes with the remote control system doesn't look very heavy duty. I'd order a second remote as a backup.

You would need one SPDT relay. AD-PR40-1C-12D | Power relay 40A SPDT 12VDC coil
They don't offer an SPST so you can use an SPDT instead

and two DPST relays. AD-PR40-2A-12D | Power relay 40A DPST N.O. 12VDC coil



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The diodes on the relays protect the remote module from relay spikes and the other two are so that relay 1 operates with both control lines.
 
  #7  
Old 07-04-13, 07:08 AM
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This is great! Thank you very much for the diagram, it is extremely helpful!

I have ordered the lot (AD-PR40-1C-12D & 2 x AD-PR40-2A-12D). Worked out nicely to $49.75 which enabled free shipping to Canada (orders over $49).

I will certainly consider ordering an additional remote, I happen to have this one laying around but I know there are a lot of options for wireless winch controllers out there. Also, if there is a certain heavy duty one you have in mind, by all means let me know.

Can you recommend the diodes I would require for this circuit? I am familiar with the basis of how a diode works but I'm not familiar with the various options available. Since the diodes in your diagram are all on the DC portion of the circuit I'm sure I have some diodes here I could use, I just want to be sure.

Again, thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!
 

Last edited by Matt723; 07-04-13 at 09:30 AM.
  #8  
Old 07-04-13, 10:40 AM
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You can use almost any diode for the job. 1.5 or 3 amp at 50 volts would be fine. As long as you don't use the glass type diode.....you should be good.

Also....when I labeled UP and DOWN on the diagram....I didn't know which way was which based on CW or CCW rotation but it shouldn't be hard to figure out.
 
  #9  
Old 07-04-13, 01:10 PM
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Thank you once again!

I'm still confused about the diodes. Given that the circuitry is all 12V I'm curious why a 50V diode... I was originally thinking a 13V Zenor for protection over the main 12V power source. Is the diode on the relay for protection against AC? Are the 2 diodes in the UP/DOWN lines in case I push both buttons at once? I'm confused.

I took a shot at the overall wiring diagram.

Overall Wiring

Note: In the diagram there is a small error on the first relay (RY1) it shows T2 & T4 connected to the NC instead of NO, which would be the correct connection.

Edit: I think I understand the diodes for the control lines, if I didn't have them there all three relays would fire when a button is pressed. Still a little confused about the diode across the relays.
 

Last edited by Matt723; 07-04-13 at 01:42 PM.
  #10  
Old 07-04-13, 04:23 PM
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It's called EMF.... electro motive force. When you power up a coil or a transformer and then disconnect it you get an extremely large spike that will blow out electronic equipment. You aren't using a zener because you aren't regulating anything. In normal use the diodes are forward biased and do nothing.....when the power is disconnected the diode reverse biases and shorts out that surge.


Nice job on the drawing

The diodes in the relay 1 line are so that each direction activates the proper start winding connection as well as the main power connection. Diodes are one way valves. If you didn't use those two diodes then the direction relays would both activate at once.

There is nothing in my drawing that will protect your motor from both buttons being pressed at once. That part of the circuit needs to be handled by the remote controller.
 
  #11  
Old 07-05-13, 06:37 AM
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Very informative! This is great stuff, looks like I'll need to do more reading on diodes.

Until then I'll use some 50V 1.5A ones... Diode

Thank you so much for all your help, once I have the circuit together I'll let you know how its working.

I really appreciate it!
 
  #12  
Old 07-05-13, 12:58 PM
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Your schematic could be simplified by indicating only 4 leads extending from the motor , two "Run" leads and two "Start" leads; not necessary to indicate the internal winding connections.

Could not locate "L1" on the schematic.

The current-flow thru a diode is "against" the point of the arrowhead.

An option; two double-pole 12 volt D.C. relays, one "Forward" and one "Reverse". One pole on each relay would operate a 120 volt double-pole contactor that connects "L1" & "L2" to the "Run" winding. One pole on the "Forward" relay would operate a 120 volt double-pole relay that connects "L1 & L2" to the "Start" winding , and one pole on the "Reverse" relay would operate a 120 volt double-pole contactor that reverses the "L1 & L2" connection to the "Start" winding.

Connecting a diode is series with a D.C. coil prevents the "back-voltage" that is induced in the coil when the coil is de-energized
 
  #13  
Old 07-05-13, 01:35 PM
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Those diodes will work fine in that application.

I left L1 out since it's a neutral connection that never gets opened.
 
  #14  
Old 07-08-13, 01:12 PM
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Hey Guys,

Thanks for all your help again with my circuit, I really appreciate all your input.

I managed to find a some 1000V 1.5A (1N5399) diodes in the shop so I'll use those.

Here is the final circuit, I added a switch to be able to manually control the motor while standing next to it.

Circuit Wiring

Thanks!
Matt
 

Last edited by Matt723; 07-08-13 at 01:42 PM.
  #15  
Old 07-08-13, 03:31 PM
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Your diagram indicates 7 leads extending from the motor; there should be only 4; 2 "Start" leads and 2 "Run" leads. Also 2 windings with only one lead to each winding , and one winding with an "open" end.

No indication of the "L1" connections; the "Momentary " On-Off-On switch is the symbol of a double-pole, single-throw switch. What's used as a "selector" switch is a single-pole, double-throw switch with a "Common" terminal and two "Select" terminal = a three-terminal switch.

A push-button is an example of "Momentary-contact" .

"Motor Forward" is redundant; simply "Forward" and "Reverse".

Best wishes for a "dazzling success" !!!!
 
  #16  
Old 07-09-13, 07:45 AM
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Thanks for the information PattBaa.

Can you show me what you mean with a diagram for the motor? Even with your explanation I still count 7 connections, I just used what I thought was a generic motor illustration that had 8 connections (since I needed 7). If you could show me the correct way to display these connection I would be grateful.

I will correct the other switch terminations and update.

Thank you!
 
  #17  
Old 07-09-13, 08:29 AM
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I have corrected the switches and re-titled some areas as you suggested.

Updated Wiring Diagram
 
  #18  
Old 07-09-13, 01:15 PM
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Please refer to the connections on the AB drum-switch-- 4 leads extend from the motor to the drum-switch terminals and line connections. Two leads are the leads from the "Run" winding , one lead connected to termnal "F" , and the other lead conected to "L2" , Line Conductor "2".

With both "Forward" & "Reverse" , the "F" end of the "Run" winding is switched to the "E" terminal which is connected to "L1"

The other two leads are the leads to the "Start" winding; one lead connects to terminal "B" and the other lead to teminal "C". The "A" terminal connects to "L1" , and the "D" terminal connects to "L2".

For "Reverse" , the "B" lead of the "Run" winding is switched to the "A" terminal = "L1" , and the "C" lead of the "Run" winding is switched the "D" terminal = "L2".

For "Forward" , the "B" lead is switched to the "D" terminal = "L2" , and the "C" lead is switched to the "A" terminal = "L1".
 
  #19  
Old 07-09-13, 06:25 PM
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Just to comment on your latest schematic.

Your drawing doesn't represent the "center off"
The switches should be shown in the center position....not already connected for one direction.

Also....your wireless receiver will need a direct 12 volt connection to power the receiver.
 
  #20  
Old 07-10-13, 12:15 PM
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I read over PattBaa's posts a couple times and I think I am starting to get what you're saying. You'll have to forgive me, I have never worked with motor wiring in the past.

Here is the wiring information for my Motor.
Here is the wiring for the AB Switch I currently have installed in the system.

Here is my latest Circuit Drawing, hopefully this is getting closer to accurate.

I was basically looking to take leads off the drum switch and connect them directly to my circuit, what will I do with L1?
 
  #21  
Old 07-10-13, 12:41 PM
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Oh yeah, PJ... unfortunately the program I'm using for drawing this circuit is extremely limited and I cannot have the switches shown in the "center off position" which would be their normal state.
 
  #22  
Old 07-11-13, 01:50 PM
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I think I get it now. I was confused because my motor had P1 & P2 connections instead of T1. I realize now that L1 will go to P1 and P2 plays the role of T1. I still count 5 connections to the motor though.

Here is what I think is the final circuit diagram, I have hooked up the DC portion and fired the relays accordingly, I'll be adding the motor and testing it out on Monday.

Thanks again for all your help PattBaa and PJmax!
 
  #23  
Old 07-13-13, 02:33 PM
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You can much simplify your schematic by isolating the relay-coil control circuits from the relay contact circuits that connect to the Line-leads and the motor leads.

The basic Forward / Reverse transition is switching the T5 & T8 leads---

Forward = T5 to P2 T3 L1 & T8 to L2 T2 T4
Reverse = T8 to P2 T3 L1 & T5 to L2 T2 T4
 
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