GFCI requirements

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  #1  
Old 07-30-13, 07:47 AM
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GFCI requirements

Sounds like you have a neutral connection on the dishwasher or sink disposal that that is not returning thru the GFCI causing the imbalance. What ever flows into the GFCI must return through it if connected to the load side of GFCI. This is a common mistake. Appliance motors on start-up can cause spurious trips of the GFCI. A refrigerator or freezer can shutdown on start-up when connected to a GFCI. Avoid connecting to the GFCI in these cases.

Mod Note: Fixing is a moot point till the circuit source is corrected. Circuit should be a non GFCI circuit not connected to the small appliance branch circuits.
Appliance motors on start-up can cause spurious trips of the GFCI.
Not true for modern appliances. A trip would indicate a bad appliance or GFCI that needs to be replaced.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 09:26 AM
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I have to agree with the Mod Note. A refrigerator or freezer in a garage or unfinished basement is REQUIRED to be on a GFCI protected power source.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 01:08 PM
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GFCI on motor operated major appliances

Unfinished but not finished basement? You must like warm beer lol
Most people have a second older frig.

I believe in GFCI when not being used for feeding through (Load side). I will spend the extra money using more GFCI than feeding through and having a branch circuit down. The intent is to protect personnel when using portable tools, Etc. not furnaces, refrigerators, Etc.

I have experienced garage door opener failures, outdoor lighting failures, imbalance loads because of improper wiring.These circuits were wired through a GFCI. How many times has your GFCI tripped outside due to moisture? Yes, we need them for our safety, but we must know when and where to use them.
 

Last edited by bmart37468; 07-30-13 at 01:41 PM. Reason: Addition to thread
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Old 07-30-13, 06:20 PM
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I believe in GFCI when not being used for feeding through (Load side). I will spend the extra money using more GFCI than feeding through and having a branch circuit down. The intent is to protect personnel when using portable tools, Etc. not furnaces, refrigerators, Etc.
The NEC is very specific on GFCI protection. A furnace in an unfinished basement is hardwired and generally on a dedicated circuit and does not need GFCI protection. A refrigerator, cord and plug connected, in that same unfinished basement must be GFCI protected. The intent is to protect personnel from shock when using the receptacles in an unfinished basement.

I have experienced garage door opener failures, outdoor lighting failures, imbalance loads because of improper wiring.These circuits were wired through a GFCI. How many times has your GFCI tripped outside due to moisture? Yes, we need them for our safety, but we must know when and where to use them.
Yes, we must know when and where to use GFCI protection and the NEC is again, very specific. Outdoor lighting does not need GFCI protection, but all receptacles in garages, including those on the ceiling for garage door openers, are required to be GFCI protected.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 07:34 PM
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I believe in GFCI when not being used for feeding through (Load side). I will spend the extra money using more GFCI than feeding through and having a branch circuit down. The intent is to protect personnel when using portable tools, Etc. not furnaces, refrigerators, Etc.

I have experienced garage door opener failures, outdoor lighting failures, imbalance loads because of improper wiring.These circuits were wired through a GFCI. How many times has your GFCI tripped outside due to moisture?
Of course it's your money and you are free to spend it however you want to. Helps the economy and all that.

I'll just note, though, that I've installed hundreds, if not thousands, of GFCI receptacles over the years. The majority of those protected downstream loads. We never wired off or past the LINE terminals to go to a second GFCI device, because there's no way to justify the cost. None of them has ever failed, AFAIK, due to moisture or any other issue. I think a former boss did tell me he had to send one of the guys back to replace one on a job I'd done once. Turned out to be a bad device out of the box.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 08:32 PM
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As you know the normal GFCI trip out in 2 cycles and about 4 milliseconds. They minimize the time and current values. When they first came out they were to protect personnel using portable tools. They are not as expensive as you indicate regardless how many you have installed. I have to disagree with the NEC regarding certain usage. Just Make sure that these major appliances are properly grounded.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 08:51 PM
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They are not as expensive as you indicate regardless how many you have installed.
How many I've installed, or had my crew install, has nothing to do with it. A quality GFCI receptacle will cost at least 10 times as much as a standard duplex receptacle.

I have to disagree with the NEC regarding certain usage.
You can disagree with the requirements of the NEC 'til the cows come home. That won't change our reliance on it in this forum, it won't change the NEC, and it won't change what the inspector will require.

That said, the requirements in the NEC are always subject to interpretation. It sounds like you're interpreting them so that you're providing GFCI protection everywhere it's required but that you're choosing to do that by installing more devices than someone else might. If so, that's just a question of wiring and installation methods.

Just Make sure that these major appliances are properly grounded.
Of course. And make sure you provide GFCI protection, and AFCI protection, where each is required.
 
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Old 07-30-13, 09:04 PM
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This discussion had been added to an older thread. I've moved it to a new thread to keep the discussions clearer.

Separated from gfci disposal switch issue.
 
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Old 07-31-13, 05:59 AM
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I have to disagree with the NEC regarding certain usage. Just Make sure that these major appliances are properly grounded.
I don't agree with everything in the NEC either. I don't think I agree with proposed 2014 regulations if dishwasher circuits are required to be GFCI protected, I see no use for it. The only reason I can see that this may become a new regulation is because dishwashers are typically cord connected and rarely hardwired these days. The same goes for disposers.

bmart, what part of Illinois are you from? Just curious.
 
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Old 07-31-13, 07:40 AM
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gfci

Chicago area. I have experienced too many nuisance trips from GFCI especially outdoors. I recently installed the newest version GFCI in my own bathroom and when I plugged a small power vac into the outlet, it tripped, other appliances worked fine. The supervising electricians test for pulling permits is an extensive 5 hr. exam and covers industrial,commercial and residential. Incidentally I never was a electrician by trade. I trained on high, line and low voltage managing utility substations, and later managed alarm equipment going into municipalities in our state. I definitely respect the NEC code, as it is the bible for electrical installations.
 

Last edited by bmart37468; 07-31-13 at 08:34 AM. Reason: rewording
  #11  
Old 07-31-13, 09:05 AM
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Just want to add my two cents regarding gfci failure.
I live and work in South Florida, and I've replaced a large amout of gfci receptacles over the years. By a large margin, the vast majority of them have been outdoors. I'm not surprised. We're taking a solid state device and subjecting it to a lot of heat and humidity, an environment that isn't very suitable for it.
What does surprise me is that the receptacles seem to do so well in bathrooms, another unfriendly environment.
Fortunately, for the outdoors, we now have outdoor rated gfci receptacles.
 
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