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Can one breaker control both Cooktop and Oven? Please Help ASAP

Can one breaker control both Cooktop and Oven? Please Help ASAP

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  #1  
Old 08-08-13, 05:00 PM
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Can one breaker control both Cooktop and Oven? Please Help ASAP

I recently had my contractor install a new cooktop (Maytag MEC7424AB), and wall oven (Maytag MEW5524A) during a kitchen reno. After install, I realized they both "half work". The two back burners work, the two front burners do not. The oven light turns on, and I think it gets hot, but the display is off therefore I can't see to adjust for temperature and setting. I had an electrician look at it, and he insists it is installed properly. Thinking it was a malfunction with TWO BRAND NEW appliances, I called Maytag. However, the Maytag serviceman told me it was not wired properly. Reason being there is ONE breaker servicing both appliances (so one switch on the panel turns the cooktop and oven on/off at the same time). I live in an older condo building and the previous appliances were also a cooktop and oven. So I'm not sure what to do now.

What should I check, how and can one breaker service both appliances anyways? My electrician and the serviceman got into a huge argument about it basically blaming each other for the malfunction.

Any help will be most appreciated! The electrician is coming back this weekend but I want to make sure something gets done properly before he leaves again telling me it's Maytag's problem

I believe the the breaker is a single 40amp breaker. (according to Maytag serviceman...I clearly know nothing about electrical work)
 
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  #2  
Old 08-08-13, 05:20 PM
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Sure that's not a typo.
A single 40 amp. breaker? Not a double?
 
  #3  
Old 08-08-13, 06:02 PM
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While code does permit an oven and a cooktop to share a breaker it would usually be a 60 amp double pole breaker. A 40 amp double (not single pole) would normally only be for a cooktop or oven but not both.

The oven light turns on, and I think it gets hot, but the display is off
That would likely indicate the new oven was 120/240 and is missing the neutral connection. If the old oven was 240 only there may not be a neutral. (Assumes you mean indicator light not the light that lights up the inside of the oven.)

Simple answer is there should be two double pole breakers. A 40 amp for the cooktop and either a 30a or 40a for the oven. That or a 60 amp two pole breaker for both.
 
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Old 08-08-13, 06:31 PM
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Sure that's not a typo.
A single 40 amp. breaker? Not a double?
I took it to mean a single (one) 40 amp breaker. It obviously has to be a 2 pole.

My electrician and the serviceman got into a huge argument about it basically blaming each other for the malfunction.
Are you sure the electrician is a real electrician and not just a handyman?
 
  #5  
Old 08-08-13, 06:39 PM
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Welcome to the forums!

What should I check,
Your cooktop and wall oven will need one or two 240V circuits to operate. 240V circuits are supplied and protected by 2-pole, or "double," circuit breakers. Open your panel and look for a double-wide breaker. It will look like two regular full-size breakers with their handles joined together. If you have more than one of those, look on the panel schedule to see which one is labeled "oven" or "cooktop."

When you find the right one, read the number on the handle. That's the size of the breaker and the circuit. Tell us what that is.

how and can one breaker service both appliances anyways
That part's easy. One breaker supplies all of the receptacles in your bedroom, for example. The wires are spliced together, or branched, until they get to all of the loads.

The question is whether it should be done this way. It can be done here in the states under the NEC, and it may be allowed under the CEC, but it must be done carefully.

The answer also depends on the requirements specified by Maytag. I found your new appliances on Maytag Canada's web site: Maytag cooktop MEC7424AB and Maytag wall oven MEW5524A. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a link to the installation instructions for either one.

Can you post links to those, or scan in or type the electrical requirements for each appliance?

One more question: Did you have a wall oven and a separate cooktop before. or are these two appliances replacing a single range?
 
  #6  
Old 08-08-13, 06:46 PM
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I know nothing about breakers but on the electrical panel, the word that says "stove (no word for oven)" has two lines coming out of it to refer to a black switch that is like a double spot (so it turns on/off two spots at once). Does this mean it's double, not single??

In the notes of the Maytag serviceman (who is not an electrician), he wrote "one 240V line is feeding wall oven and cooktop on one single 40amp breaker". How he got this information, I have no idea. He didn't test anything. How can I check what kind of breaker/amp is the breaker?

In the manuals for the appliances, it says:

Cook top: A 3-wire or 4-wire, single phase, 120/240 volt, 60-Hz., AC
only electrical supply is required on a separate, 40-amp circuit fused on both sides of the line.

Oven: Models rated 3.6 kW and below at 120/240 volts require a
separate 15-amp circuit. Models rated 3.6 to 4.8 kW at
120/240 volts require a separate 20-amp circuit.
■A circuit breaker is recommended.
■Connect directly to the circuit breaker box (or fused disconnect) through flexible, armored or nonmetallic sheathed, copper cable (with grounding wire).

When the electrician was playing around with the outlet behind the oven, there was one outlet. It looked like out of the side of the outlet coming from behind, there was a series of wires leading to the cooktop. The oven was plugged in.

I don't know if these details help. In any case, does it seem like the appliances are "broken"? Or most likely installed incorrectly due to the power supply?
 
  #7  
Old 08-08-13, 06:50 PM
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Thanks for the reply! Everyone is so helpful! I was posting something as you were posting, so I think I replied about the double switch thing you were talking about. That's what it seems to be.

(I believe mine is a 3 wire or whatever, in reference to below manuals)

Cooktop install manual:
http://www.maytag.ca/assets/cuy_K6us...Tt4scrc0BX.pdf

Oven install manual:
http://www.maytag.ca/assets/eexHJyFZ...PdBX3G7T6q.pdf

I'm not sure what way it SHOULD be done, all I know it whatever is being done now is not working! (Though I still cannot be positive if it's the appliances broken/malfunctioning, or install problem...which I suppose seems more likely?)
 
  #8  
Old 08-08-13, 07:20 PM
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Starbrite, it's not often that we get answers so fast that it's almost like they were posted before we asked the questions. It's also not common to get such complete answers right away. Thank you.

on the electrical panel, the word that says "stove (no word for oven)" has two lines coming out of it to refer to a black switch that is like a double spot (so it turns on/off two spots at once). Does this mean it's double, not single??
Yes. That's a 2-pole 240V breaker. What size is it (what is the number printed on the handle)?

Ideally, your two appliances should have two separate 240V circuits. The cooktop needs a 40 amp circuit and the oven, I think, needs a 20 amp circuit. You will need to look at the nameplate information to see if it draws more than 3.6 kW, or less. As I said earlier, both can be supplied off one circuit if it's properly sized and if the work is done in a specific way - at least here.

One 40A circuit might be able to supply both appliances. You may need a Master Electrician, and you'll certainly need someone who's experienced in wiring cooking appliances, to figure this out and do the work. You should not rely on a contractor who does his own electrical work unless that contractor is licensed and bonded, separately, for the lectrical work.

The good news is that neither of your new appliances requires a 4-wire service:

For the cooktop:
■ The cooktop is rated 240 volt.
This cooktop does not have a
neutral (white) wire.
For the oven:
■ Models rated 3.6 kW and below at 120/240 volts require a
separate 15-amp circuit. Models rated 3.6 to 4.8 kW at
120/240 volts require a separate 20-amp circuit
■ Oven must be connected to the proper electrical voltage and
frequency as specified on the model/serial number rating
plate. The model/serial number rating plate is located on the
right vertical part of the oven frame. See the following
illustration.
■ Models rated 3.6 kW and below at 120/240 volts require a
separate 15-amp circuit. Models rated 3.6 to 4.8 kW at
120/240 volts require a separate 20-amp circuit.
This oven is manufactured with red and black power supply wires
and a cabinet connected yellow/green wire twisted together. The
oven is not supplied with a white neutral wire.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 08-08-13 at 08:51 PM.
  #9  
Old 08-08-13, 07:29 PM
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From the manual for the cooktop:
A 3-wire or 4-wire, single phase, 120/240 volt, 60-Hz., AC only electrical supply is required on a separate, 40-amp
So if you have a 40 amp breaker it is only good for the cook top. You need another for the oven.

From the oven manual:
Models rated 3.6 kW and below at 120/240 volts require a
separate 15-amp circuit. Models rated 3.6 to 4.8 kW at
120/240 volts require a separate 20-amp circuit.
Do you know the KW rating of your oven?

"one 240V line is feeding wall oven and cooktop on one single 40amp breaker".
This is an example of a 40 amp breaker. Note the "40" on the handle.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]16110[/ATTACH]

If you have only one 40 amp breaker you will need new wiring for the oven.
 
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Old 08-08-13, 07:46 PM
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Anybody notice a funny echo in here?
 
  #11  
Old 08-08-13, 08:30 PM
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Just to point out everything we have discussed does not necessarily explain the problems you are having. At this point and not being there we can only make educated guesses. In fact my guess the oven was 120/240 connected to a 240 only appears to be wrong based on the followup information you posted. I was also probably wrong about needing a 60 amp breaker if both are on the same breaker. I had never encountered an oven that only needed 15 amps so I retract that also for now. However you really can't start troubleshooting till you are sure they are correctly connected. Who provided the electrician? It wasn't an installer from the store that sold the oven was it?
 

Last edited by ray2047; 08-09-13 at 07:10 AM.
  #12  
Old 08-08-13, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nashkat1
One more question: Did you have a wall oven and a separate cooktop before. or are these two appliances replacing a single range?
Originally Posted by starbrite
I live in an older condo building and the previous appliances were also a cooktop and oven.
Oops. Missed that.
 
  #13  
Old 08-08-13, 09:08 PM
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I'm not sure what way it SHOULD be done, all I know it whatever is being done now is not working! (Though I still cannot be positive if it's the appliances broken/malfunctioning, or install problem... which I suppose seems more likely?)
If there's a 240V 40A circuit to these appliances, the behavior you observed is most likely the result of of an error in the installation.

I had an electrician look at it, and he insists it is installed properly.
Really? A licensed, experienced electrician?

My electrician and the serviceman got into a huge argument about it basically blaming each other for the malfunction.
Buy the serviceman a beer. Find a different electrician.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 08-09-13 at 10:40 AM.
  #14  
Old 08-09-13, 07:25 AM
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Something still isn't right. The cooktop instructions clearly state the cooktop is 120/240 volt rated, but the state

The cooktop is rated 240 volt.
This cooktop does not have a
neutral (white) wire.
The oven instructions also clearly state that this is a 120/240 volt rated oven, but the state

Models rated 3.6 kW and below at 120/240 volts require a
separate 15-amp circuit. Models rated 3.6 to 4.8 kW at
120/240 volts require a separate 20-amp circuit.
This oven is manufactured with red and black power supply wires
and a cabinet connected yellow/green wire twisted together. The
oven is not supplied with a white neutral wire.
So which is correct? If both appliances are rated 120/240 volt, there must be a neutral yet the instructions also state there is no neutral wire supplied. A qualified electrician can determine in a matter of seconds the correct connection.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 08-09-13 at 10:42 AM. Reason: format quote
  #15  
Old 08-09-13, 03:41 PM
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I really appreciate everyone's input on this, as you can tell I have no background and am asking really simple questions. REALLY APPRECIATE IT! THANKS! And I understand that since no one is actually looking at the problem in person, we can only speculate, especially based on the spotty information I'm providing...but again, I just want to get as much information as I can before the same electrician come back tomorrow (my contractor sent him...as this is ultimately my contractors responsibility if it's not broken appliances...so I'm stuck with him for now).

I checked the handle of the switch and couldn't find a number. Here is a picture of the panel. It's blurry, but the only number information I found on the bottom saying "Cat no. B (...rubbed off) 100amp 120/240V AC/CA" I'm not sure if the double handle switch is what amp exactly? Do I have to open it further to find out? These are the pictures of it.
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My oven says: [email protected] volts: 3,0kW, [email protected] volts: 3,84kW. I think someone asked for that.

The serviceman told me that he has seen the old appliance before (I'm in a condo building and all the appliances were original from like 20 years ago) and said even though the old appliance was a cooktop and oven, they seemed to be wired together internally...like they were connected. I didn't see the old one taken out, so no idea how to confirm this.

Also, the electrician said he had decades of experience and he called himself a "master electrician"...so he convinced me he was very qualified when he came the first time and told me the appliances must be broken. He seemed very nice, and was trying to teach me stuff...I trust everyone it seems. Sigh.
 
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Old 08-11-13, 04:30 PM
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Whoops, thought I replied a few days ago, but maybe because I attached pictures, it didn't go through!

The kW rating for my oven: [email protected]: 3,0kW, [email protected]: 3,84 kW

The amps: So I couldn't find numbers on the black switches...I am guessing I needed to open it to find out? On the bottom of the panel board it says on a sticker: "Cat No. B (some number) 100amp 120/240V AC/CA" Those were the only numbers I found. Do I have to open it to find out?

The electrician: When he came last time, explicitly told me he was considered a "Master Electrician" which supposedly meant he was really good at what he does! I can only take people's word for what it is. He had to change his appointment yesterday, so will be seeing what he says tomorrow.

Does it make sense to tell him to source each appliances separately with the current power source to see if the appliances function properly when only power goes to one, instead of two? I'm just trying to predict how his second visit could go any different (the first time he told me everything was wired fine and it's the appliances fault...hope he does something different this time). Oh he took some pen thing and turned on the broken stove and said the voltage was going through, but the stove didn't work?
 
  #17  
Old 08-12-13, 03:24 PM
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I don't think my messages are getting posted so I might be repeating myself, or missing info, either way sorry for the gaps!

So electrician came today.

He fished a new wire from the box to the oven area. (YES!) And then when it came to wiring it up again, he noticed that the manuals didn't make sense to him.

Oven said: "20amp" - but electrician said the plug for it, is set for 40 amps (this big chunky looking plug)

Cooktop said: "40amp" - but electrician said the wire (#12) is for 20amp, not 40. (there are 3 wires coming out of the cooktop)

So he's hesitant to install as per the instruction manuals because he feels it's unsafe.

Are the manuals wrong?? Is it unsafe? What's a solution if so?

He's coming back on Thursday with new breakers for the new line...and I'm supposed to call Maytag to confirm this arrangement...but they really can't tell me anything technical, which is annoying. The saga continues!
 
  #18  
Old 08-12-13, 03:31 PM
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Whoops, thought I replied a few days ago, but maybe because I attached pictures, it didn't go through!
Sorry... New spam system we are working with..... You should see your posts now...

Welcome to the forums....
 
  #19  
Old 08-12-13, 03:37 PM
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I had never heard of a Commander breaker panel. Apparently they have been out of business for many years. It will be interesting to see what breaker the electrician uses. Here's a bit more information: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...reakers.html#b
 
  #20  
Old 08-12-13, 03:53 PM
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Welcome back. Sorry about the delay.

The electrician: When he came last time, explicitly told me he was considered a "Master Electrician" which supposedly meant he was really good at what he does!
It means he has had a fair bit of field experience, passed a rigorous exam, paid his license and bonding fees, etc. He's one of the best.

That said, he may have spent his entire career building power plants or maintaining swimming pools or any of dozens of different specialties we can become immersed in. The best recommendation he has, IMO, is that your contractor has hired him, and trusts him.

Yes, I'd listen to whatever he's inclined to share.

Cooktop said: "40amp" - but electrician said the wire (#12) is for 20amp, not 40. (there are 3 wires coming out of the cooktop)

So he's hesitant to install as per the instruction manuals because he feels it's unsafe.
If he's looking at the wires (conductors) in the whip for the cooktop, ask him if he's ever seen appliances before with internal wiring that was smaller than the CEC would require for the same amperage. The manufacturing, including the internal wiring, of appliances is regulated under a separate code; not the CEC nor the NEC. It is not uncommon to encounter leads for cooking appliances, water heaters and other heavy loads that look, and are, much smaller than the house wiring they're being connected to.

If what I just posted doesn't jar his memory or otherwise put him at ease then it may be time for a call to Maytag.

Oven said: "20amp" - but electrician said the plug for it, is set for 40 amps (this big chunky looking plug)
This one is a concern. He probably needs to work this out with Maytag.
 
  #21  
Old 08-14-13, 01:03 PM
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Electrician came and went - put the double 20 to the cooktop, and the double 40 to the oven. So now there are two separate breakers to them. Cooktop still doesn't fully work (front two burners off, back two fine), and oven we didn't even plug back in to check.

He refused to put the double 40 on the cooktop (as stated in the manual) and just left it at that.

I called the service people that service Maytag (as Maytag themselves don't have any technical support) and they said that the 40amp should be for the oven (even though the manual stated otherwise), but the cooktop should be the 40amp (as followed in the manual).

How inconsistent can things be?

So, not following the manual, what is the effect of using a smaller (20amp instead of 40amp) for the cooktop?

I believe the same Maytag serviceman is coming tomorrow....probably to tell me it's an installation problem, charge me money, and have me call an electrician again...cycle continues. This whole situation makes me want to never buy an appliance ever again.
 
  #22  
Old 08-14-13, 02:12 PM
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Electrician came and went - put the double 20 to the cooktop, and the double 40 to the oven.
That makes no sense. The oven is probably the lesser load. I think you need a different electrician.

what is the effect of using a smaller (20amp instead of 40amp)
All burners on high would probably trip the breaker. I suspect the cooktop is only served by a #12 supply which limits the breaker to 20 amps. The electrician didn't wan to run new wire so he ran BS instead. Are the two burners that work low heat burners? Sometimes the small burners are 120 and the large burners 240. The fact control lights and two burners work could mean you only have 120 volts to the cooktop.
 
  #23  
Old 08-14-13, 02:20 PM
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Electrician came and went - put the double 20 to the cooktop, and the double 40 to the oven. So now there are two separate breakers to them. Cooktop still doesn't fully work (front two burners off, back two fine), and oven we didn't even plug back in to check.

I believe the same Maytag serviceman is coming tomorrow....probably to tell me it's an installation problem, charge me money, and have me call an electrician again...cycle continues.
I think you're going to have to hire your own electrician, unless you're willing to do the wiring yourself.

The one thing that's still puzzling is the 40A plug that came with the oven. Get as full and as straight an answer about that as you can when the Maytag person is there, please.
 
  #24  
Old 08-14-13, 02:56 PM
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For the oven, even the guy from Maytag service over the phone said it should be 40amp, not 20 as stated in the manual. I will ask the serviceman when he comes.

The two burners that work are high and low. As for the #12 line, will a company make a product with specific wires, and expect them to be changed when installing? Like if the 12 is only for 20amps, why would they have it and say it's for 40amp?

So the electrician didn't want to alter the wiring of the actual cooktop, since that nulls warranties. He could have ran a line out of the cooktop you mean? To fix the problem of the 12 only doing 20amps?

Yes, I think I need to dish out for another electrician...but not even sure how to find one that is competent and will actually fix this problem.
 
  #25  
Old 08-14-13, 03:19 PM
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Clarification: I was referring to the size of the cable from the breaker box not the wires in the cooktop whip. If the electrician was refusing to put in more then a 20 amp breaker because of the wires in the whip then I find his knowledge even more suspect. The size of the wires in the whip are determined part by size and part by the temperature rating of the insulation. The higher the temperature rating the high the amps the wire can handle within the limits of the size of the copper wire. Or in other words a number 12 will handle 40 amps but is limited to 20 amps because of the insulation used on "house" wiring. The insulation on appliance wire is different, higher temp rating.

If you want to DIY it let us know. It may not be that hard. It almost sounds like you could just swap the stove and oven supplies. The reason only two burners work though is a mystery for Maytag. Have you checked the elements are firmly plugged in?
 
  #26  
Old 08-14-13, 03:23 PM
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The problem with the cooktop appears to be that it's only getting 120V on one leg instead of 240V from both legs. Since you said it's on a double breaker that should be 240V, so either something isn't right with the wiring or there's a problem inside the cooktop.

The smaller wires inside the cooktop may be fine. Appliances must meet a different set of standards from those for the branch circuit wiring.

Let us know what the Maytag tech says. Ask a lot of questions.
 
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