One section out in kitchen

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  #1  
Old 08-14-13, 03:31 PM
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One section out in kitchen

One section in the kitchen area with 2 plug ins, a switch for fan, ceiling light and over the sink link........i.e. 4-5 outlets not giving electricity.

Checked the breaker section, not only the kitchen breakers but all the breakers. They all have 120V current on each wire when checked with the multimeter. Even checked the wires coming out immediately from the breakers and they all have the current.

There is no current in the outlets and switches in the OUT section in kitchen. Wonder what can be the problem?

Burned/Loose wire somewhere between the breaker and the section? Can't figure it out. It all started when changing the ceiling light lamp from one type to other. I joined the white to white and black to black on the lamps and everything seemed straightforward.

Thanks all!
 
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  #2  
Old 08-14-13, 03:37 PM
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It's probably an open splice where you changed the fixture. I would double-check everything there.
 
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Old 08-14-13, 04:07 PM
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will check tomorrow for the open splice type issue.
 
  #4  
Old 08-15-13, 03:50 PM
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Here is the wiring diagram:

From the ceiling metal box: 3 sets of wires. Black (3 interwined) White (3 interwind) Red (single wire)

The on/off switch on wall: Two wires one black and one red join the two screws on the switch.

On the Light Fixture: Two wires, One Black and One White.

So the questions is Black from fixture goes to what wire from the ceiling
White from fixture goes to what wire from the ceiling

I might have connected wrong wiring when installing the new light fixture.
 
  #5  
Old 08-15-13, 04:01 PM
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From the ceiling metal box: 3 sets of wires. Black (3 interwined) White (3 interwind) Red (single wire)
Not really. Intertwined is for romance novels not electrical work. You have two 2-conductor cables (black, white, bare) and one 3-conductor cable (red, black, white). One 2-conductor cable is probably line, power in. The other 2-conductor is load, power out. The 3-conductor is probably a switch loop from the switch box. We need to know for sure it goes to the switch and all the wiring at the switch. You also need to disconnect the wires at the light and determine which cable is line using a multimeter. (A non contact tester won't do it.)
 
  #6  
Old 08-15-13, 04:07 PM
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3 Black wires from ceiling are interwined into one and capped by a black plastic capping.
Same for 3 White wires coming from ceiling......interwined into one and capped.
Only 1 red wire from ceiling.

The two wires Black and Red on the switch side go to two screws on the switch. One switch side there is also white wire which is capped and not connected to the switch.
 
  #7  
Old 08-15-13, 04:21 PM
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Do you have conduit or cable? I really didn't fully understand your last post. Do you really mean connected when you write intertwined because that isn't what intertwined means.

3 Black wires are interwined into one and capped by a black plastic capping.
Translation: three black wires wire nutted together.

on the switch side
Not sure what that means.

The two wires Black and Red on the switch side go to two screws on the switch.
Translation: Black and red connected to the switch.

One switch side there is also white wire which is capped and not connected to the switch.
Translation One white capped and not connected. Is that from the 3-conductor cable?

3 White wires coming from ceiling......interwined into one and capped.
So does that mean you have four white wires total from four cables? Sounds more like you only have three cables since you have three blacks. Therefore there should be three whites but you seem to be saying there is a fourth white that isn't connected. Please clarify.

Cable is two or more wires in a metallic or non metallic sheath.
Conduit is a metallic or nonmetallic pipe through which individual wires are run.
Wires are most often connected together using a twist on connector often called a wire nut. Technically it is a brand name but often used for any twist on connector.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 08-15-13 at 04:44 PM.
  #8  
Old 08-15-13, 07:20 PM
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I will post more accurate info. tomorrow.

I do not have 4 whites it is only 3 whites and 3 blacks and 1 red from the ceiling.

All 3 of whites are twisted into one and then capped by a NUT.
All 3 of blacks are twisted into one and then capped by a NUT.
Only 1 wire of Red coming from ceiling.
 
  #9  
Old 08-16-13, 04:41 PM
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Here is the info:

On the wall switch which is like six feet from the light there is one red wire on the switch screw and one black wire on the switch screw. The white wire in the box is capped by a nut.

On the ceiling metal box:
All 3 of whites are twisted into one and then capped by a NUT.
All 3 of blacks are twisted into one and then capped by a NUT.
Only 1 wire of Red coming from ceiling.

I also checked the multimeter reading on the switch with breakers on i.e. live mode, and there was no current reading obtained.

Something wrong between breaker and the switch? How to find that out? All the other plugs and switches in the OUT section also show no reading.
 
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Old 08-16-13, 04:50 PM
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I also checked the multimeter reading on the switch with breakers on i.e. live mode, and there was no current reading obtained.
You don't normally check voltage across the switch. You need to disconnect each 2-conductor cable and check between the black and white to see if you have a ~120v. If you find a "hot" cable mark it and we will go from there.
 
  #11  
Old 08-16-13, 05:03 PM
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how do i find the hot cable?

what are conductor cables to disconnect?

sorry but me very novice......
 
  #12  
Old 08-16-13, 06:42 PM
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You asked:
what are conductor cables to disconnect?
From a previous post of mine:
Cable is two or more wires in a metallic or nonmetallic sheath.
Conduit is a metallic or nonmetallic pipe through which individual wires are run.
Wires are most often connected together using a twist on connector often called a wire nut. Technically it is a brand name but often used for any twist on connector.
From an even earlier post:
You have two 2-conductor cables (black, white, bare) and one 3-conductor cable (red, black, white).
You asked:
how do i find the hot cable?
From my next to last post I explained:
You need to disconnect each 2-conductor cable and check between the black and white to see if you have a ~120v.
 
  #13  
Old 08-16-13, 07:00 PM
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Apologies. I didn't notice you might be French Canadian. Sorry for any frustration I might have shown. I think we have a bit of a communication problem but be assured your English is a lot better than my non existent French so just keep asking when you don't understand me.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 08-16-13 at 09:26 PM.
  #14  
Old 08-16-13, 09:15 PM
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Went to the switch that controls the ceiling light again and here is the report:

No multimeter reading at all between any combination
Black with Neutral
Red with Neutral
Neutral with Ground
Black with Ground
Red with Ground

No readings. For the ground I touched the metal portion of the box.



HOWEVER here is a new finding.............

In the OUT section where I reported all switches and plugs out, a switch which controls the fan in the eat-in section of the kitchen here is a report

Neutral with Ground = 120V
Red with Ground = 120V
Black with Ground = 120V

Red or Black with Neutral = 0 Zero volts

Btw, Ray I highly appreciate the effort you are putting in to solve my problem. Guess it is becoming a funny puzzle of sorts because of my novice levels. hahahaaaa!
 
  #15  
Old 08-16-13, 09:33 PM
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Neutral with Ground = 120V
Red with Ground = 120V
Black with Ground = 120V

Red or Black with Neutral = 0 Zero volts
Taken all together that means an open (disconnected neutral) somewhere. You need to check all neutral connections.

No readings. For the ground I touched the metal portion of the box.
Just because a box is metal doesn't mean it is grounded. Could you post some pictures of the open boxes with wires and devices pulled out but still connected so we get a good view of everything. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html
 
  #16  
Old 08-16-13, 10:11 PM
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Just so we're all on the same page. The poster has a two wire feed in, a two wire feed out and a three wire cable to the switch. The white wire of the three wire is not needed at the wall switch so it's capped off.

I'm guessing the circuit was working fine before you changed the light fixture. Now from what you measured it appears that you have an open neutral (white) wire. When you removed the old light it was connected to the single red and the neutral splice with the three white wires.

I would turn off the circuit and try reconnecting just the white wires. It could be possible that one of those whites is broken.
 
  #17  
Old 08-17-13, 01:34 PM
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having too much problems uploading the pictures. upload failed 3-4 times.

i have set up an e-mail address [email addresses not allowed]

5 photographs have been uploaded in a e-mail sent to myself

hope this method goes fast and less stressful
 

Last edited by ray2047; 08-17-13 at 02:23 PM.
  #18  
Old 08-17-13, 02:24 PM
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http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html Just save to a free sight such as Imageshack but not Tnypic and post the URL (ends in JPG, JPEG, PNG, GIF).
 
  #19  
Old 08-17-13, 05:45 PM
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Uploaded with ImageShack.us

hope this works for the switch controlling the ceiling light
 
  #20  
Old 08-17-13, 05:54 PM
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Ceiling Light Wiring





Same pic different angle



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
  #21  
Old 08-17-13, 06:04 PM
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Switch controlling the fan



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
  #22  
Old 08-17-13, 06:41 PM
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Uh-oh, I think I see aluminum wiring, you shouldn't be using wire nuts if that is indeed aluminum wiring. This would open a whole new conversation on a new set of issues.
 
  #23  
Old 08-18-13, 08:29 PM
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In addition to the new conversation that's needed relative to the issues with the aluminum wiring, it appears from your pictures that you don't have just
one red wire on the switch screw and one black wire on the switch screw. The white wire in the box is capped by a nut.
You don't have a switch loop.

It appears, instead, that you have one two-conductor cable and one three-conductor cable in each switch box, that the white grounded neutral conductors are spliced through, that the black ungrounded conductors are spliced together with a pigtail terminated to the on/off switch, and that the red ungrounded hot conductor is connected to the other terminal on each switch.

This is why Ray said
Originally Posted by ray2047
We need to know... all the wiring at the switch.
In the ceiling, the spliced white wires are all neutrals, The spliced black wires are all unswitched hot, and the red wire is switch-controlled hot.
 
  #24  
Old 08-18-13, 08:51 PM
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Yes I realized the earlier information error when I looked at the pictures again and again. Apoligies !!

However, what to do now to a) get the power back on b) put things in the proper order. Glad at least you guys can read the wiring photos.

Also, why don't I read any multimeter reading on the ceiling light switch but do get few readings on the switch that controls the fan.
 
  #25  
Old 08-18-13, 08:55 PM
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So what do you suggested replacing aluminum wiring with.....copper or something else. Thanks for the alert observation !!
 
  #26  
Old 08-19-13, 06:28 AM
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So what do you suggested replacing aluminum wiring with.....copper or something else. Thanks for the alert observation !!
You are in Canada so recommendations there may be different from the U.S., but I think you would learn a lot by reading a publication by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. I recommend printing it and keeping it for reference. Yes, the BEST option is to replace all of the aluminum wiring with copper, but it isn't a simple process and may not be practical.

http://www.cpsc.gov/PageFiles/118856/516.pdf
 
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Old 08-19-13, 02:10 PM
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So what do you suggested replacing aluminum wiring with.....copper or something else.
Copper. The question is how you do it.

Replace any wiring that you can. For the remainder, connect new copper wiring to your existing aluminum wiring without allowing the two metals to be in direct contact. Two methods for doing that are discussed in the CPSC publication that Joe linked to. One, the COPALUM crimp method, is only licensed to and installed by professional electricians, AFAIK. The other, AlumiConn, you can do yourself. You can even get a free sample of the connectors to get you started.
 
  #28  
Old 08-19-13, 04:55 PM
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however the 64 dollar question is what to do with the wiring now to get the power back i.e. connect which wire to which and get going.
 
  #29  
Old 08-20-13, 08:45 AM
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gentlemen,

am i being boycotted for some reason? looking for further guidance on this issue, solution is very near it seems.
 
  #30  
Old 08-20-13, 09:32 AM
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Sometimes we can't give a solution because it is too complicated. When I have encountered this in the past I usually just abandoned the wiring and ran new. There comes a point when running a new circuit is easier/quicker You might want to get an electrician to fix it or just run a new circuit from the panel using all copper.
 
  #31  
Old 08-20-13, 11:37 AM
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i think the main problem is the aluminum wire that shut down most of the inputs from this forum. i might try to run a line to switch from a near by plug to get kitchen light going. same for other plugs not working. fishing wires right from the main panels is something i have not done before.
 
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Old 08-20-13, 11:51 AM
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Is it a one story house with an unfinished attic? If so fishing wire from the main panel shouldn't be too hard.

i might try to run a line to switch from a near by plug to get kitchen light going. same for other plugs not working.
Sounds like a plan. Be sure to use AlumiConn connectors. But remember by current code you need two dedicated 20 amp circuits for the countertop receptacles and those two circuits can't be used for lighting. CEC requires 20 amp receptacles IIRC on 20 amp circuits even when multiple recptacles.
 
  #33  
Old 08-20-13, 01:29 PM
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i think the main problem is the aluminum wire that shut down most of the inputs from this forum.
For me, it's not the aluminum wires. It's trying to understand what you have now, what is and isn't working, and what you are trying to accomplish.

When we ask for a description of the wiring in a particular box or at a particular location, we are asking for a complete description. An incomplete description is misleading and confusing, and several of those in one thread starts to make deciphering the situation nearly impossible.

i might try to run a line to switch from a near by plug to get kitchen light going. same for other plugs not working.
A plug is a device on the end of a cord. It has prongs which are inserted into the slots in a receptacle in order to connect an appliance to a circuit.

Assuming you're talking about running a new cable from an existing receptacle, how are you planning to keep copper and aluminum from being in contact? You may not use the power from a dedicated small appliance branch circuit in your kitchen to supply a general load such as lighting, so you'll need to find a general purpose circuit nearby that has sufficient capacity available and extend from that.

fishing wires right from the main panels is something i have not done before.
That's what needs to be done, to the extent possible, to eliminate the hazard posed by the aluminum wire, and by it's coming in contact with copper. It is a larger project, however, and might be one you'd prefer to hire a professional to do. OTOH, it might be simpler and easier to do that than to try to safely extend an existing circuit.

What happens if you connect the black wire(s) from your light fixture to the single red wire, and connect the white fixture wire(s) to the 2-wire white splice, in the ceiling box, using a method that keeps copper from contacting aluminum?
 
  #34  
Old 10-25-13, 05:44 PM
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I finally called an electrician and he jumped around with his testers etc. and could not find anything. He was in a hurry so he asked me to change all the plugs in the main floor and upper bedroom levels and leave then open for him to quickly see the wiring set up etc.

Mere few feet from kitchen section wall was a plug socket that had two pairs of white and two pairs of black wires. On this socket, only one pair of white and black were connected and other pair was nutted. I connected the other pair also to plug screws and................the kitchen lit up, the whole section. Each and every switch and plugs came to action.

Small problem but when not in the know it can pose a big challenge.

Thanks all for the inputs and detailed efforts to help out ! Cheers !!
 
  #35  
Old 10-25-13, 05:54 PM
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Excelent! Thanks for letting us know the outcome.
 
  #36  
Old 10-25-13, 06:26 PM
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On this socket, only one pair of white and black were connected and other pair was nutted. I connected the other pair also to plug screws and................the kitchen lit up, the whole section. Each and every switch and plugs came to action.
So.......someone had disconnected the circuit at a receptacle, who would have done that? Also, remember, wire nuts shouldn't be used on aluminum wiring. Are you using CO/ALR receptacles?
 
  #37  
Old 10-25-13, 07:37 PM
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Who else than me, must have done it previous evening and may have been more than happy to find plug working with one pair of wires only.

What should be used with AL wiring, electric tape? No clue what is CO/ALR receptacles.

Btw, anyway to find a junction box hidden under a drywall ceiling or would have to break it to find junction hub.
 
  #38  
Old 10-25-13, 08:09 PM
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What should be used with AL wiring, electric tape? No clue what is CO/ALR receptacles.
None of the above. Once up on a time Cu/AL was used for aluminum wire but it really isn't any more. Tape is never used for connections. With a receptacle the only way is to pigtail copper wire to the aluminum then connect the copper wire to the receptacle. At the BigBox store they may recommend Purple wire nuts but there have been many cases of those melting or burning. About the only two ways is AlumiConn or Polaris. AlumiConn will send you five samples free.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 10-26-13 at 11:53 AM.
  #39  
Old 10-26-13, 07:01 AM
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It was the old Cu-Al receptacles that were no different from receptacles designed and approved for use with copper. Those, if you have them, should be replaced with new receptacles marked CO/ALR. Even using CO/ALR receptacles requires the exposed aluminum wire ends to be abraded and coated with antioxidant compound. The CO/ALR receptacles have been designed for use with either copper or aluminum wire and cost roughly $3 each and should be available at hardware and big box stores. The best fix is to pigtail the aluminum wires with copper wire using the AlumiConn connectors like ray mentioned. Both Lowes and Home Depot show these connectors on their websites, but not all stores stock them.

Leviton 15 Amp Duplex CO/ALR Outlet - White-R52-12650-00W at The Home Depot

Shop Alumiconn 2-Pack Plastic Standard Wire Connectors at Lowes.com

AlumiConn | KingInnovation

Get free samples here.

Samples | KingInnovation
 
  #40  
Old 10-26-13, 11:22 AM
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Check your joints at the switch. It looks like something is being fed from your switch box.
And what I would guess is likely happening, is on your 3 wire cable, power is coming down on your black wire to the switch, then when you turn your switch on, power travels back up through your red wire to your light. You stated you originally joined "black to black and white to white" on the lamp...
What did you do with the red wire when you did this? Did you cap it? Chances are the black on your light needs to be jointed to red. Perhaps (and this is just a guess that hasn't been stated yet) when you originally put in the lamp, you created a short with the red wire and tripped a breaker. But sometimes when a breaker trips it only trips internally and the little handle doesn't move. Make sure all your wires are capped and for safety sake wrap some electrical tape around the screws on your switch. Then go turn your breakers off and back on. Check afterwards if your receptacles are working again.
 
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