Generator Inlet Box Problem

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  #1  
Old 09-02-13, 05:52 PM
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Generator Inlet Box Problem

The people at reliance that make the inlet say that you can't use aluminum wiring- it's for copper only. I can't figure this out. What would make them say this. I planned on using anti-oxidant grease on the connections. Please help. should i just use the aluminum wire or should i junction a piece of copper to the aluminum? and how would i do that?
 
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Old 09-02-13, 06:08 PM
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What is the difference between using copper or aluminum wiring when installing a generator? - Yahoo! Answers

That could be the reason but I would call the company.

1 (866) 437-7998
(Option 2)
 
  #3  
Old 09-02-13, 06:30 PM
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Why on earth would you want to be using aluminum wire for a generator?
 
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Old 09-02-13, 07:26 PM
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That's probably what he has in the house.
 
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Old 09-02-13, 07:37 PM
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Even if he has aluminum wiring in the house is no reason or excuse to use aluminum from the inlet connector to the transfer switch/panel or to an interlocked circuit breaker. Unless he is installing one heck of a generator, say 50kVA or larger.
 
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Old 09-02-13, 07:50 PM
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As has been written here more than once antioxidant isn't enough. The connection must be designed for aluminum or aluminum can't be use. Obviously the connections aren't thus the warning. If you are forced to use aluminum then you need to use copper pigtails joined to the aluminum wire in such a way the copper and aluminum are isolated from each other. AlumiConn connectors are one way. However best is just don't use aluminum.
 
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Old 09-02-13, 08:09 PM
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The people at reliance that make the inlet say that you can't use aluminum wiring- it's for copper only. I can't figure this out. What would make them say this.
The lugs are not rated for aluminum. Ray is right, you have to pigtail copper to the aluminum wire and use the copper for the connections to the inlet. The AlumiConn connectors are good for wire up to a #10, anything larger requires a different connector. What wire size are you dealing with?
 
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Old 09-04-13, 04:02 PM
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I have 8 gauge aluminum. As I thought I said before, this is in my house running to my 30 amp dryer receptacle. We recently got a gas dryer so it is no longer needed. If there is some way, I would like to use the aluminum wire as it is just sitting there right now. I know that there is a wire nut that is designed to join aluminum and copper wire. I am not sure how large the wires can be though. It is the ideal purple wire nut. If that is not large enough (I will check) what other methods are there of pig tailing large wires like these?
 
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Old 09-04-13, 04:27 PM
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You could use Let me google that for youor just get a 60 amp non-fusible pull out disconnect and make the transition there.

This disconnect would be a lot less expensive.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 04:27 PM
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The AL wire nuts are not large enough for #8. Polaris connectors will be over $20 each. It will be cheaper to abandon the AL and run new copper wiring.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 04:38 PM
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what other methods are there of pig tailing large wires like these?
Polaris connectors.

I know that there is a wire nut that is designed to join aluminum and copper wire. I am not sure how large the wires can be though. It is the ideal purple wire nut.
No. There isn't a wire nut or any other connector that can be used to safely connect copper to aluminum wire unless that connector keeps the two wires physically separated.

This is what happens with a purple wire nut:
Name:  Purple wirenut failure 2.jpg
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I would like to use the aluminum wire as it is just sitting there right now.
You might get some money for it at the scrap yard. It isn't safe to use for wiring except in an aluminum-ready circuit where all of the terminals are rated to accept AL wire. Sorry.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 04:47 PM
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I have 8 gauge aluminum. As I thought I said before, this is in my house running to my 30 amp dryer receptacle.
No, you have not mentioned anything about where this cable is or what it was previously used for.

Please tell us that you are NOT going to try to use the circuit breaker as the disconnect from the service panel as is. At the VERY least you would need a panel interlock to prevent you from having both the main circuit breaker and the former dryer circuit breaker on at the same time. Some jurisdictions do NOT accept the use of panel interlocks, especially if they can be defeated by removing the panel cover.
 
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Old 09-04-13, 05:27 PM
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How big is your generator?
 
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Old 09-06-13, 07:21 PM
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The generator is a 7500 Watt with a 30 amp plug. I need to make clear that I have found an interlock kit for my panel to prevent the main and generator breakers from being on at the same time. Also, the purple wire connectors are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for this purpose. I have even seen regular wire nuts used with anti oxidizing paste and there have been no problems. These wire nuts are being used for their purpose. I'm not sure where you got that picture.
 
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Old 09-06-13, 07:26 PM
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Independent Research Evaluates Performance of the Ideal-65 Twist On Connector

10/04/1999 Independent Research report to IEEE Holm Conference of a study of more than 4,531 of these connectors used in 102 apartments indicates that significant field failures occurred and were attributable to the connector itself, not to installation practices nor to any unusual condition of the aluminum branch circuit wiring.

07/10/1998 CPSC Against Twist-On Aluminum Wire Connectors documents the US CPSC position on the use of twist-on connectors for aluminum wiring repairs

10/20/1997 Independent Research report to IEEE Holm Conference indicates splices using this connector are not capable of long term safe performance as part of the permanent wiring of existing aluminum-wired homes.

9/10/1997 Field failures of this device in actual service have now been reported.

3/29/1996 Independent Tests indicate Ideal-65 purple Twist-on retrofit connector fails UL 486C Safety Standard despite its UL-listing

1/311996 Ideal Corporation has indicated they're sending us additional information. 5/96 note: received, not posted. Reply contained no information except asserts no reported problems.

1/31996 Fire Hazards With Aluminum to Copper Twist-on Connectors & Acceptable Repair Practices Color Photos, Alternative Retrofit/Repair Procedures, Current Issues. From the 9/28/95 CPSC Meeting Minutes.

9/28/1995: AL-Rated Twist-On Connector Debate Continues: At a second meeting at CPSC HQ on 9/28/95, attended by the manufacturer, CPSC, UL, the author, and other professionals we learned that the manufacturer has responded to some of the CPSC concerns. That information, along with information from UL is forthcoming in the meeting log.

Ideal's marketing literature which we received and which opens with "Retrofitting Aluminum Wire Used To Be A Can of Worms"..."Not Any More!" should not be taken literally to mean that this is a general retrofit product.

At the 9/2819/95 meeting at the US CPSC in Washington, D.C., the manufacturer clarified that while their new twist-on connector has been listed under UL486C, this device is not intended for general aluminum wiring retrofit. The new connector is intended for limited special applications involving (only) certain aluminum-to-copper splices such as the addition of a new device (e.g. ceiling fan) to a house wired with aluminum. The manufacturer is reviewing its marketing and instructional literature in order to clarify the intended use.

6/1/1995: Twist-on connectors (wire nuts) have not been recommended (by the CPSC) for permanent repair of aluminum wire electrical circuits. To date, this includes recently-released twist-on connectors manufactured by Ideal Industries and available in some markets. While Underwriters Laboratories has listed these new twist-on's, at a meeting with the CPSC on 1 June,1995, a number of CPSC concerns were reviewed with UL and with the device manufacturer. As a result, additional research was being performed.

6/1/1995 CPSC, UL, Ideal Corp, Meeting Log 6/1/95 documenting UL-CPSC agreements for report exchange and additional testing of twist-on connectors for aluminum retrofit

5/1/1995 CPSC Letter Aluminum Wiring Connectors letter to UL documents concerns with twist-on connectors for aluminum wire retrofit

Conclusions & Opinions

08/03/2010: The results of independent testing and studies of both field use and laboratory testing of aluminum electrical wiring repairs using this twist-on connector and using materials and connections such as found in homes wired with aluminum wiring indicate that the Ideal #65 does not meet the UL Standard UL486C even though the connector is UL listed for those wire combinations.

Our interpretation of this result is that there are possible fire hazards using this connector for general retrofit of aluminum wiring, and we advise against its recommendation or use in this manner. Consumers and building professionals should watch for any CPSC update of their current position: The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) does not recommend use of this connector for retrofit of aluminum-wired homes.
Source:Aluminum Wiring Twist-on Connector Debate about the Ideal 65 "Twister" for Aluminum Wiring Repair

Here are some photos: Ideal 65 Twister Retrofit Aluminum Wiring Connector Update

[Aluminum Wiring "Repair" Methods NOT Recommended by the US CPSC]

Two other repair methods are often recommended by electricians. While these repair methods are substantially less expensive than COPALUM crimp connectors, neither of these repairs is considered acceptable by the Commission staff.

The first repair ("pigtailing") involves attaching a short piece of copper wire to the aluminum wire with a twist-on connector sometimes called a wire nut; the copper wire is connected to the switch, wall outlet or other termination device. The Commission staff has evaluated the effectiveness of "pigtailing" as a repair. In OPSO-sponsored laboratory testing some brands of twist-on connectors have performed very poorly. Over time, substantial numbers of these connectors have overheated in laboratory tests. Surveys of and statements made by electricians and electrical inspectors confirm the highly variable and often poor performance of these connectors when used with old technology aluminum wire. It is possible that some pigtailing "repairs" made with twist-on connectors may be even more prone to failure than the original aluminum wire connections. Accordingly, the Commission staff believes that this method of repair does not solve the problem
Source: Repairing Aluminum Wiring CPSC#516 US Consumer Product Safety Commission Recommendations
 
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Old 09-06-13, 07:49 PM
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Thank you for that information, but if UL still lists them, and I can buy them at my Home Depot store, then I'm gonna stick with them
 
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Old 09-06-13, 08:31 PM
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And is UL going to buy you a new house if it burns down? I have to say I honestly don't understand your decision. We have given you two safe ways and you choose an unsafe way. Is your wife comfortable with your decision that risks her and any children you have or do you live alone.
 

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  #18  
Old 09-06-13, 09:15 PM
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The acceptable wire range for the purple Ideal wire nuts does not include #8 wire. Please read the correct materials listed above. You are really making a bad situation worse and risking your house and your families safety.
 
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Old 09-07-13, 06:50 AM
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Also, the purple wire connectors are SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED for this purpose.
Sorry, but no, they weren't. The original intent was for wiring light fixtures with copper wires to aluminum house wiring, a relatively low current installation. When used for purposes as you suggest, the failures already noted have occurred and have been fully documented. You have had several pros provide acceptable connectors, I'd advise either using them or installing copper wire. By the way, is your home wired with all aluminum wire?

I need to make clear that I have found an interlock kit for my panel to prevent the main and generator breakers from being on at the same time.
Is the interlock kit from the panel manufacturer or is an aftermarket one-size-fits-all kit? Is it U.L. Listed? It should be.
 
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Old 09-26-13, 08:10 PM
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Thank you for that information. I did buy new copper 10/4 to run from a 30a breaker on my panel to an inlet box in my garage. I did not attempt to pigtail the wires. My house is all copper except for the a/c range and dryer. And of course the service entry cables. The panel interlock is aftermarket. Not sure if it is listed or not!
 
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Old 09-26-13, 09:18 PM
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The panel interlock is aftermarket. Not sure if it is listed or not!
That's OK. The real question is "Did you submit the specs for it when you applied for your permit?"
 
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Old 09-26-13, 09:23 PM
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I did buy new copper 10/4
Why 10-4? You only need 10-3 (white, black, red, bare) or did you use service cable (white, black, red, green) instead of NM-b?
 
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Old 09-27-13, 02:11 PM
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Sorry, I meant 10/3 with ground
 
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Old 09-27-13, 02:18 PM
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As my house is wired with all copper, I have mentioned using the Purple wire nuts before, and that was at my someone else's house that has aluminum wiring. I used the wire nuts to make copper pigtails for connections to the switches which I thought is what they are designed for. In other parts of the house regular wire nuts with paste were used to make pigtails at the outlets only, and I went through and did all the switches.
 
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Old 09-27-13, 04:13 PM
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I have mentioned using the Purple wire nuts before, and that was at my someone else's house that has aluminum wiring. I used the wire nuts to make copper pigtails for connections to the switches which I thought is what they are designed for
That's not what they were designed for, but they will usually last for a while before burning up.

In other parts of the house regular wire nuts with paste were used to make pigtails at the outlets only, and I went through and did all the switches
Was this for a friend or were you charging for this service? If for a friend, I think I'd suggest your friend be sure his insurance is paid up. If it was for hire, I'd suggest YOU be sure YOUR LIABILITY insurance is paid up!
 
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Old 09-27-13, 10:19 PM
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[HR][/HR] it was for a friend, thanks.
 
  #27  
Old 10-28-13, 10:32 AM
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Final update

Just wanted to update everybody on what happened. I installed the Reliance Controls 30 AMP Generator Inlet Box on the wall of my garage. I then ran 10/3 (with ground) wire to a 30 AMP breaker in my breaker box. This breaker is interlocked with my main breaker, preventing both from being on at the same time. I bought a 25 foot 30 AMP Twist-lock cord with the female end connected to my 30 AMP Twist-lock inlet box in garage, and the male end connected to my generator's 30 AMP Twist-lock outlet. The generator is a 7000 watt running, 9000 watt surge generator. The generator has a floating neutral so I do not have to worry about that because it is unbounded @ generator and bonded @ my main panel. Thank you for all the advice! I tested the generator by hooking it up to my house and it worked great, the generator started right up with its remote and the interlock switched over the power flawlessly. I was able to run my electric range and furnace fan.
 
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Old 10-28-13, 10:38 AM
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Thanks for letting us know the outcome.
 
  #29  
Old 01-04-15, 02:26 PM
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I was just looking back at this thread...

About my friends house that I did the wiring for, it is a townhouse in a co-op. All the units are very old and all are wired with aluminum wiring. There have been no problems in any of the units. When she moved in, we replaced all of the old outlets. We saw that, inside of the electrical boxes, there was aluminum wiring coming in, and was pigtailed (with a standard wire nut with anti oxidizing paste) to a short piece of copper for connection to the outlet. The same process was used for the outgoing wire. I was adding an outlet and decided to tap into a nearby switch. I found the (aluminum) power wire in the box, and used a purple wire nut to connect to a new outgoing copper wire to the new outlet, and a short piece of copper to the switch. There have been no problems with this setup. There have been no fires. There really is no viable solution other than this, because they would have to rip out the walls in 50+ units to replace it all with copper. Regarding the generator, haven't even used it :/ no power outages in awhile here. My house has aluminum wiring going to the dryer and a/c, is this ok?
 
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Old 01-04-15, 05:03 PM
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About my friends house that I did the wiring for, it is a townhouse in a co-op. All the units are very old and all are wired with aluminum wiring. There have been no problems in any of the units. When she moved in, we replaced all of the old outlets. We saw that, inside of the electrical boxes, there was aluminum wiring coming in, and was pigtailed (with a standard wire nut with anti oxidizing paste) to a short piece of copper for connection to the outlet. The same process was used for the outgoing wire. I was adding an outlet and decided to tap into a nearby switch. I found the (aluminum) power wire in the box, and used a purple wire nut to connect to a new outgoing copper wire to the new outlet, and a short piece of copper to the switch. There have been no problems with this setup. There have been no fires. There really is no viable solution other than this, because they would have to rip out the walls in 50+ units to replace it all with copper.
Don't try to justify what you and others before you did because you can't! It is just plain wrong! You could be held liable if that unit should catch on fire!

http://www.cpsc.gov//PageFiles/118856/516.pdf
 
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Old 01-06-15, 05:35 PM
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There really is no other way. She wanted an outlet added and I did the best I could, and the same practice was used was used by the mantinence men in the co-op. If i asked them, I bet they would recommend the same practice. I will be over soon and I will check on the connections. We'll see how they're doing ; But my house does have aluminum wire feeding the a/c and dryer plug. I do have access and can replace if necessary. What do you think? 30amp breaker for dryer and 50amp breaker for a/c. Not sure what gauge the wires are. This was like this when we moved in. House was built c.1998
 
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Old 01-06-15, 06:01 PM
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A handyman or maintenance person is not an electrician and probably does not know the electrical codes or may not care as long as it works.

There was another way, it appears that it was more work than you wanted to get into so you took the hack approach.

A house built in 1998 should not have aluminum branch circuits.
 
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Old 01-06-15, 08:18 PM
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There really is no other way. She wanted an outlet added and I did the best I could, and the same practice was used was used by the mantinence men in the co-op.
I told you before, you cannot justify what you or others have done so stop trying! Since you don't know and do not sound inclined to take advice on the proper way to handle these situations, the best thing you could do is hire a qualified electrician to make repairs to your friends unit. Keep in mind that all electricians are not qualified to work on aluminum wiring and many younger electricians haven't even seen aluminum wiruing, much less have any experience with it.
 
  #34  
Old 01-08-15, 06:09 PM
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MY house was built c.1998 and it has all copper, except for the dryer and a/c. I believe its OK for these large circuits, yeah? I can replace them with copper if needed though. Friends co-op was built c.1960 and has aluminum feeders. The wiring cannot and will not be replaced. Wire nuts and copper pigtails are being used as the solution. Thank you for your help, but I'm OK with this setup. A qualified electrician would recommend replacing the wiring, which is not possible. Sorry! I know its the correct way, but still, not possible.
 
  #35  
Old 01-08-15, 06:15 PM
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Current Electrical Setup in the apartment

We saw that, inside of the electrical boxes, there was aluminum wiring coming in, and a wire nit was used to pigtail the aluminum wire to a piece of copper for connection to the outlet, which was rated for copper only. This process was used for all four wires (2 hots 2 neutrals) and the grounds were just twisted together, crimped and one wire was cut, one was connected to the outlets ground screw.

This wasn't done by me, but was like this when we moved her into the apartment. No lights flickering, no hot wall plates, nothing. Seems to be OK.
 
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Old 01-08-15, 08:36 PM
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Wire nuts and copper pigtails are being used as the solution. Thank you for your help, but I'm OK with this setup.
Not a good solution at all, but you've already been told that. A better solution would have been to properly direct connect the aluminum wires to CO/ALR receptacles and/or switches.

We saw that, inside of the electrical boxes, there was aluminum wiring coming in, and a wire nit was used to pigtail the aluminum wire to a piece of copper for connection to the outlet, which was rated for copper only. This process was used for all four wires (2 hots 2 neutrals) and the grounds were just twisted together, crimped and one wire was cut, one was connected to the outlets ground screw.
This is bad for a couple of reasons. First, you know the purple Ideal wire nuts have an extremely high failure rate and shouldn't be used. Second, the aluminum ground wire shouldn't be connected to a CU only receptacle even if it is just the ground. Third, not even the purple Ideal wirenut is U.L. Listed for connecting two aluminum and one copper wire. That wire nut's listing is for ONE aluminum and ONE copper wire although it is beyond me why U.L. hasn't pulled the listing from that product.

Did you know that homes with aluminum wire are 55 times more likely to have one or more wire connections at outlets reach "Fire Hazard Conditions" than homes wired with copper wire. Add in the jerryrigged repairs you have made and the odds of a serious issue go up tremendously. I hope the home has good smoke detectors and good insurance and the insurance company never finds out what you have done.
 
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Old 01-08-15, 08:43 PM
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Please, please stop trying to justify work that has been done below accepted standards simply because nothing has happened yet. This last post is just another example of work done without regard for safety and foul have potentially tragic implications.
 
  #38  
Old 01-09-15, 07:35 AM
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There are some good alternatives to complete replacement of aluminum wiring. The best one out there is probably the COPALUM system, which uses a high pressure crimp to effectively weld copper pigtails onto the ends of the aluminum wires. It needs to be installed by a trained technician. Next best is the AlumiConn connector, which uses separately torqued screw lugs to join the copper and aluminum. Another option is to only use receptacles which have an aluminum rating (CO/ALR) which helps to reduce the risk. Be very selective about light fixtures as they cannot require 90C cable, and although the purple wirenuts can be used for lights they really aren't a good solution compared to the previous two. I absolutely would not use high wattage devices on the aluminum circuits without COPALUM or AlumiConn having been installed. Best of course would be to install new copper circuits for those locations (kitchen, bath, space heater, window AC). If it was my house I would also install AFCI breakers on the aluminum branch circuits to hopefully catch any minor problems before they become major ones.

Aluminum is ok for ranges, dryers, central ACs, panel feeders, etc., so long as the breaker and the receptacle or termination block are rated for it.

Homes with aluminum wiring branch circuits don't automatically burn down, but they are just a lot more likely to than homes with copper. Handling the aluminum carefully and terminating it as best as possible will reduce the risk, but it will always be a significantly higher risk of failure than copper. Denying or ignoring the risk doesn't make it go away, it just makes you unprepared for the consequences.
 
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Old 01-09-15, 09:15 AM
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Just a bit more food for thought. Wiring is usually daisy chained so each receptacle even if nothing is plugged in has electric flowing through it and that receptacle (or other device) can over heat with nothing plugged. It is not uncommon for an older house to have "forgotten" receptacles either behind something never moved or in an obscure place. Each of those are hidden dangers you won't know about till they start a fire (or you look for them). And we haven't even mentioned junction boxed buried in insulation in the attic.
 
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