Installing an oven in a house built in '78 - Do I replace the entire feed?
#1
10-16-13, 09:18 AM
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Installing an oven in a house built in '78 - Do I replace the entire feed?
The original oven died (35 years old). I have a main feed coming from the 50 amp breaker (Red, Black and a paper "insulated" white ground). The feed from the breaker is a heavier gauge then it's reduced (in a box) to 10# and wired directly to the old oven. The reduced feed has an actual insulated white copper ground and an bare copper line (both from the paper insulated copper ground of the main feed). When I stripped the reduced black and red wires I noticed they are are twisted wire (aluminum?).
I have a newer oven (2009) with a 3 way plug. The plug on the new oven says 50 amp and the back of the oven says "Use a new UL listed 40 amp power supply cord, 8 gauge copper or 6 gauge aluminum". I'm not sure if those specs refer to the outlet or the actual cord already attached.
I bought a 50 Amp 3-Pole,3-Wire non-grounding outlet. Am I going to burn my house down if I use the existing wiring? Should I replace all the wiring back to the breaker?
I have pics if anyone needs me to upload them I would be greatly appreciative if anyone has some feedback for me.
Thanks in advance!
I have a newer oven (2009) with a 3 way plug. The plug on the new oven says 50 amp and the back of the oven says "Use a new UL listed 40 amp power supply cord, 8 gauge copper or 6 gauge aluminum". I'm not sure if those specs refer to the outlet or the actual cord already attached.
I bought a 50 Amp 3-Pole,3-Wire non-grounding outlet. Am I going to burn my house down if I use the existing wiring? Should I replace all the wiring back to the breaker?
I have pics if anyone needs me to upload them I would be greatly appreciative if anyone has some feedback for me.
Thanks in advance!
#2
10-16-13, 10:03 AM
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Welcome to the forums.
An aluminum feed to the appliance is not necessarily a bad thing if the wire is sized large enough and you use a receptacle that is designated for Cu/Al use.
Can you describe the type of wire that is run... is there anything on the outer jacket ?
An aluminum feed to the appliance is not necessarily a bad thing if the wire is sized large enough and you use a receptacle that is designated for Cu/Al use.
Can you describe the type of wire that is run... is there anything on the outer jacket ?
#3
10-16-13, 10:12 AM
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PJmax,
From the pic I have it shows the aluminum wire outer jacket to read "XPT #10 AWG (UL)" which I would think is too small if those specs on the back of the oven (8 gauge aluminum) are indeed for the outlet.
From the pic I have it shows the aluminum wire outer jacket to read "XPT #10 AWG (UL)" which I would think is too small if those specs on the back of the oven (8 gauge aluminum) are indeed for the outlet.
#5
10-16-13, 11:00 AM
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pcboss,
Thank you both for the replies. I don't have the exact information from the sheath of the cable in the wall but here is a pic. It's much larger in gauge than the #10 going to the old oven. The white copper cable is paper insulated. I did check that.
I won't be able to get you the info from the sheath of that main cable until I get home though.
Thank you both for the replies. I don't have the exact information from the sheath of the cable in the wall but here is a pic. It's much larger in gauge than the #10 going to the old oven. The white copper cable is paper insulated. I did check that.
I won't be able to get you the info from the sheath of that main cable until I get home though.
#7
10-16-13, 11:51 AM
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PCboss,
The only electrical panel is the breaker box in the garage. It's on a double 50 amp breaker. Not sure if that means it's 100 amps? Attached is a pic.
The only electrical panel is the breaker box in the garage. It's on a double 50 amp breaker. Not sure if that means it's 100 amps? Attached is a pic.
#8
10-16-13, 06:44 PM
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That looks to be older style 8-2 NM type cable with a #10 or #12 ground. So there doesn't appear to be any issue with aluminum wiring. That wiring is all copper. Even the twisted wires. They may be tin plated and look like aluminum. That wiring should be fine.
Sometimes if the cable jacket is painted at one end it's not at the other end. PCboss was suggesting to look at the jacket of the wire at the panel end. If the panel is in the wall that could be a little tough. That is a two pole 50A breaker. It is 50amps at 240 volts. The handles don't get added together.
Sometimes if the cable jacket is painted at one end it's not at the other end. PCboss was suggesting to look at the jacket of the wire at the panel end. If the panel is in the wall that could be a little tough. That is a two pole 50A breaker. It is 50amps at 240 volts. The handles don't get added together.
#9
10-17-13, 05:48 AM
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PJMax,
Thanks for the reply as well. I inspected the twisted wire and I did see copper color within it where I had snipped it. Never knew it was plated.
Okay so I guess the next question since the wiring appears to be okay is when they wired the original oven there are 4 wires coming from the 3 wire. Red,Black,White,Unshielded Copper (ground?).
White-> Reduced Gauge Red
Black-> Reduced Gauge Black
White Paper-->White and Unshielded Copper
Since I purchased a three way, three pole, non ground 50 amp outlet I'd assume I need to remove the bare copper line from that feed and just wire up the Red,Black,White wires correct?
Thanks for the reply as well. I inspected the twisted wire and I did see copper color within it where I had snipped it. Never knew it was plated.
Okay so I guess the next question since the wiring appears to be okay is when they wired the original oven there are 4 wires coming from the 3 wire. Red,Black,White,Unshielded Copper (ground?).
White-> Reduced Gauge Red
Black-> Reduced Gauge Black
White Paper-->White and Unshielded Copper
Since I purchased a three way, three pole, non ground 50 amp outlet I'd assume I need to remove the bare copper line from that feed and just wire up the Red,Black,White wires correct?
Last edited by avanbaelen; 10-17-13 at 06:07 AM.
#10
10-17-13, 06:28 AM
If it is #8 as PJ thinks you must use a 40 amp breaker. Go to the hardware store and buy one foot od #8 and #6 stranded THHN/THWN. Compare them with insulation removed to the wires you have to determine size. However best practice is to replace with 3 conductor plus ground cable sized to the amp requirement of your new oven.
Last edited by ray2047; 10-17-13 at 11:11 AM.
#11
10-17-13, 10:53 AM
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However best practice is to replace with 3 conductor plus ground cable sized to the amp requirement of your new oven.
Last edited by ray2047; 10-17-13 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Typo in quote from my post.
#12
10-17-13, 11:02 AM
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CasualJoe,
Yeah the copper ground in that bundle has a white paper like "insulation. It's not the same as the other two larger wires (which appear to have wire insulation similar to current wire). As ray mentioned also I'll need to change the breaker too. Guess I'll run entirely new cable and a new breaker. Rather do things the right way than burn my house (and myself) up.
Yeah the copper ground in that bundle has a white paper like "insulation. It's not the same as the other two larger wires (which appear to have wire insulation similar to current wire). As ray mentioned also I'll need to change the breaker too. Guess I'll run entirely new cable and a new breaker. Rather do things the right way than burn my house (and myself) up.
#13
10-17-13, 11:35 AM
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In your post #7 you gave us a picture of your Federal Pacific Electric service panel. Just so you are aware, replacement of that FPE panel needs to be one of your next projects with high priority. Read some of this info on FPE.
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs
Expect a new 2 pole 40 amp breaker to run between $40 and $50, depending on where you find it. FPE has been gone for a long time, but there are a couple manufacturers who still make them.
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs
As ray mentioned also I'll need to change the breaker too.
#14
10-17-13, 12:21 PM
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Hmmm.... I figured I'd have to replace the electrical stuff if/when I bought this house but I didn't really know if that was just an overly cautious stance or not. Now I can say with confidence it's something I definitely need to do.
I assume a project of replacing all the electrical wiring/panels/outlets in the house would legally require a certified electrical contractor with an inspection by a local agency?
I assume a project of replacing all the electrical wiring/panels/outlets in the house would legally require a certified electrical contractor with an inspection by a local agency?
#15
10-17-13, 01:13 PM
I assume a project of replacing all the electrical wiring/panels/outlets in the house would legally require a certified electrical contractor with an inspection by a local agency?
Last edited by ray2047; 10-17-13 at 02:43 PM.
#16
10-17-13, 01:18 PM
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Thanks Ray. I'm up in Palm Coast in central Florida and they are pretty by the book here so I'm sure it'll definitely have to be inspected. Gonna talk with a few contractors that I know.
#17
10-17-13, 02:47 PM
You need an electrician or an electrical contractor not a general contractor. There is one thread on the board right now where the member is having to correct the electrical work by a GC. To get the panel changed out you just need a master electrician.
#18
10-17-13, 03:01 PM
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Yes I figured I'd contact a few electrical contractors. I guess if I'm going to replace the panel I might as well do all the wiring too? Add GFCIs where needed etc. or is it typical to just swap out the panel? I don't want to cut corners. If wiring should be replaced I'd rather do it all.
#19
10-17-13, 03:40 PM
I guess if I'm going to replace the panel I might as well do all the wiring too?
Add GFCIs where needed etc. or is it typical to just swap out the panel?
#20
10-17-13, 07:08 PM
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I don't want to cut corners. If wiring should be replaced I'd rather do it all.
#21
10-18-13, 10:48 AM
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CasualJoe,
I don't know. I've found a master electrician that I'm going to have come over to look at everything.
I don't know. I've found a master electrician that I'm going to have come over to look at everything.
#22
10-18-13, 06:08 PM
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I've found a master electrician that I'm going to have come over to look at everything.
#23
10-22-13, 04:51 AM
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Yeah it's all copper. We looked at it a few days ago. Gonna replace that breaker and mount an outlet for the oven then get an estimate on how much it'll cost to redo the panel and address that at a later date.
#24
10-22-13, 06:53 AM
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Yeah it's all copper. We looked at it a few days ago. Gonna replace that breaker and mount an outlet for the oven then get an estimate on how much it'll cost to redo the panel and address that at a later date.
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#25
10-22-13, 06:56 AM
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CasualJoe that's what I said! Haha. I'm considering buying this house and I was going to factor in upgrade costs when I do it. I'm just glad it's going to be the lesser of the possibilities. I appreciate everyone's help on here. Thank you!
