Does this panel need to be replaced?
#1
Does this panel need to be replaced?
It's an FPE Stab-Lok. The service received final approval in March, 1980. The only number I've found on it is BU-910315, on a sticker on the inside of the door.
In addition, the new owners need a circuit added. I doubt I could find a new breaker for this jewel for less than the cost of a decent new panel, if I could find one at all.
Assuming the answer to that question is "Yes, yesterday if not sooner!" -- does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement that will fit in the existing 10-1/2" wide opening?
In addition, the new owners need a circuit added. I doubt I could find a new breaker for this jewel for less than the cost of a decent new panel, if I could find one at all.
Assuming the answer to that question is "Yes, yesterday if not sooner!" -- does anyone have a recommendation for a replacement that will fit in the existing 10-1/2" wide opening?
#2
Between 1976-1980..... FPE was all we used. I no longer work for that electrical contractor but have never heard of a problem with any of our services.
What do you need..... a flush mount main panel ?
What do you need..... a flush mount main panel ?
#3
Between 1976-1980..... FPE was all we used. I no longer work for that electrical contractor but have never heard of a problem with any of our services.
What do you need..... a flush mount main panel?
Yes. Flush mount, main lug, 12 position/24 circuit minimum.
#4
I doubt that you will find a panel with that many circuits and still that narrow. The gutter wiring dimensions were increased. Most panels are now stud bay width.
#5
Does this panel need to be replaced?
In addition, the new owners need a circuit added. I doubt I could find a new breaker for this jewel for less than the cost of a decent new panel, if I could find one at all.
Federal Pacific 20 Amp 1/2 in. StabLok Thin Single-Pole Type F UBI Replacement Circuit Breaker-VPKUBIF020N at The Home Depot
.............or this for the full size thick breakers.
Connecticut Electric 20 Amp One Pole Thick Type F UBI Replacement Circuit Breaker-VPKUBIF20N at The Home Depot
Actually, HD isn't the least expensive place to buy breakers for an FPE panel, but they are available. I can buy the similar breakers made by American Circuit Breaker locally for about $20 less than HD.
#6
I would suggest it, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it if they don't want to. I would, however, mention that their insurance company might require it.
They're not married to replacing the existing panel. What they want is a safe install at the lowest cost . Where we left this question, at the end of my walk-through, was that they would rely on my assessment. I told them -- well, the man of the house, actually -- that I would check here for assessments, since I haven't run into many FPE panels before - maybe none.
Right now, I'm surprised to learn that the consensus, from three members whose experience I respect and whose judgement I trust is that it can remain in service and even be upgraded mildly. And I'm delighted to learn that I can buy new breakers for it. I was inspired by Joe's links to go searching.
They're doing a full remodel of the kitchen, and they need a second 20A SABC as part of that, plus a receptacle at the new refrigerator location. So that means adding one 20A circuit. I also expect that they'll want some undercabinet and/or task lighting on the long wall that will be the refrigerator plus the sink, so that might need a new 15A circuit. And the panel has two half-height open spaces with blank fillers in the cover.
I found what looks like the right breakers at Amazon. Since I have so little experience with FPE Stab-Loc, I'm hoping Joe or someone can confirm that these should work:
Connecticut Electric UBIF020N FPE Circuit Breaker, 1-Pole 20-Amp Thin Series
Connecticut Electric UBIF015N FPE Circuit Breaker, 1-Pole 15-Amp Thin Series
Yeah, $45 is more than I'm used to paying for two SP breakers, but if I can do that and save them several hours labor plus the cost of a new panel and breakers for it, they're well ahead.
Oops! Just realized that they're planning to put the range that's replacing the wall oven and cooktop against the interior chase wall where the panel is. Time for a phone call!
#7
Be careful of counterfeits. Had a customer who bought some from who knows where. They were so loose they kept falling out before I could get the cover on. Given that real Stablocks can be so hard to get out your tempted to use a crowbar I'm guessing counterfeit. I finally just refused to use them.
#8
If there's aluminum wiring I practically won't leave the house until the homeowner agrees to replace the FPE panel. Certainly, you should fully inform the HO of FPE's drawbacks.
1. Insurance can be difficult to get or replace.
2. Many times a house cannot be sold until the panel is changed.
3. Additions or modifications may require AFCIs and full height spaces.
anti-FPE websites
Is My Electrical Panel Safe? - Important Information About Federal Pacific Electric, Zinsco and Outdated Electric Panel Boxes
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs
And, yes, I nearly lost both eyes to an explosion of molten metal (residential, 240V). I was new and foolish. Neither single pole FPE breaker tripped.
1. Insurance can be difficult to get or replace.
2. Many times a house cannot be sold until the panel is changed.
3. Additions or modifications may require AFCIs and full height spaces.
anti-FPE websites
Is My Electrical Panel Safe? - Important Information About Federal Pacific Electric, Zinsco and Outdated Electric Panel Boxes
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs
And, yes, I nearly lost both eyes to an explosion of molten metal (residential, 240V). I was new and foolish. Neither single pole FPE breaker tripped.
#9
If there's aluminum wiring
Certainly, you should fully inform the HO of FPE's drawbacks.
1. Insurance can be difficult to get or replace.
2. Many times a house cannot be sold until the panel is changed.
I nearly lost both eyes to an explosion of molten metal (residential, 240V). I was new and foolish. Neither single pole FPE breaker tripped.
I'm glad you escaped serious injury, and I'm guessing the hazard would have been less with the panel dead while open. Did I hear you correctly?
#10
Be careful of counterfeits. Had a customer who bought some from who knows where. They were so loose they kept falling out before I could get the cover on. Given that real Stablocks can be so hard to get out your tempted to use a crowbar I'm guessing counterfeit.
Slightly different question: Did FPE just change its name when the bad press started? That is, is Connecticut Electric really FPE with a new set of clothes? Or did CE pick up the pieces of FPE at a liquidation sale and continue to manufacture basically the same breakers with a new label? Or did they just see an opportunity in the market and decide to fill it? Anybody know, or have some good scuttlebutt?
#11
Slightly different question: Did FPE just change its name when the bad press started? That is, is Connecticut Electric really FPE with a new set of clothes? Or did CE pick up the pieces of FPE at a liquidation sale and continue to manufacture basically the same breakers with a new label? Or did they just see an opportunity in the market and decide to fill it? Anybody know, or have some good scuttlebutt?
Had a customer who bought some from who knows where. They were so loose they kept falling out before I could get the cover on.
Right now, I'm surprised to learn that the consensus, from three members whose experience I respect and whose judgement I trust is that it can remain in service and even be upgraded mildly.
Insurance is in place.
BTW, here's some more FPE info.
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok® Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok® Repairs
EDIT
Nash, I was just looking through some of my FPE files from Jesse Aronstein and ran across something I had totally forgotten about. This is from one document.
11. FPE STAB-LOK® BREAKERS WITH PINK LABEL AND WHITE DOT
The question often arises as to whether there are any years or models of FPE Stab-Lok® circuit
breakers that meet the standard performance requirements. The answer is that only FPE Stab-Lok®
breakers with (authentic) pink UL listing labels and white dots on the handles are likely to perform as
required by the UL standard. These breakers were manufactured after production restarted in about
1981, subsequent to the discovery and elimination of the company’s fraudulent testing. 14 The
fraudulent testing practices existed prior to that -- from the time that the manufacturing operations
were moved from Newark, NJ in the 1960s. The pink labels and white dots can be seen on the FPE
Stab-Lok®breakers shown below in Figure 12. Inspectors are cautioned to check for both label color
and white dot before concluding that the breakers were produced to UL requirements.
The question often arises as to whether there are any years or models of FPE Stab-Lok® circuit
breakers that meet the standard performance requirements. The answer is that only FPE Stab-Lok®
breakers with (authentic) pink UL listing labels and white dots on the handles are likely to perform as
required by the UL standard. These breakers were manufactured after production restarted in about
1981, subsequent to the discovery and elimination of the company’s fraudulent testing. 14 The
fraudulent testing practices existed prior to that -- from the time that the manufacturing operations
were moved from Newark, NJ in the 1960s. The pink labels and white dots can be seen on the FPE
Stab-Lok®breakers shown below in Figure 12. Inspectors are cautioned to check for both label color
and white dot before concluding that the breakers were produced to UL requirements.
Last edited by CasualJoe; 11-02-13 at 02:22 PM. Reason: More FPE Breaker Info for Nashkat
#12
I didn't mean to exactly blow it off because I think it should be replaced, but you cannot make them replace it. In the end it's the homeowner's choice, I wouldn't lose any sleep over their decision. All you can do is give them the best possible information and make a strong recommendation. If you want, I can provide you some files I got from Dr. Jesse Aronstein that will blow their socks off. How hard did you want to push them?
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
Insurance is in place.
Thanks for the other info, Joe.
#13
If the panel has to be relocated because of their new layout I'll probably choose to replace it. In the end, they're pretty much leaving this up to me.
#14
I talked to them in the meantime, and owe them an email which I'll write soon. On first reaction, they seem to be going for - almost suggesting - turning the panel around and mounting in the wall of the living room.
If that's where we wind up, it's new panel, full permit, the whole nine yards. And he - the husband - actually asked me if we didn't need a permit for this. They know the cost of that, too, because we pulled one for the last work we did for them - all the power and light circuits needed when they enclosed the carport at their existing house and converted it into a pottery studio Maybe two kilns? One for sure. And at the opposite end of their split-level from the panel, of course.
These folks don't splurge but they don't cheap out either. We're going to make this work. I'm thinking Siemens for the new panel.
Now if I could just remember where I stashed the spare blades for my Roto-Split...
If that's where we wind up, it's new panel, full permit, the whole nine yards. And he - the husband - actually asked me if we didn't need a permit for this. They know the cost of that, too, because we pulled one for the last work we did for them - all the power and light circuits needed when they enclosed the carport at their existing house and converted it into a pottery studio Maybe two kilns? One for sure. And at the opposite end of their split-level from the panel, of course.
These folks don't splurge but they don't cheap out either. We're going to make this work. I'm thinking Siemens for the new panel.
Now if I could just remember where I stashed the spare blades for my Roto-Split...
Last edited by Nashkat1; 11-02-13 at 06:53 PM.
#15
I would work to having the FPE replaced. The breaker mounting stabs are cheesy and the breakers can fall out when you remove the cover.
#16
I would work to having the FPE replaced. The breaker mounting stabs are cheesy and the breakers can fall out when you remove the cover.
#17
The pink label is easy, but the white dot is a very small white dot on the breaker handle right above "ON". You said this house was final inspected in 1980? That would indicate that their FPE breakers were manufactured during the period of fraudulent testing and that their breakers may be some of those that will not trip.