New Cooktop

Reply

  #1  
Old 11-08-13, 02:59 PM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
New Cooktop

New cooktop has insulated ground wire and 2 hots.
Wall has 2 hots and white neutral, no ground.
Can I connect green from cooktop to neutral? Or if not, can I go into panel and connect neutral to ground bar and tape with green tape?

Thanks
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 11-08-13, 03:05 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Northern NJ - USA
Posts: 46,076
Can you tell what type of wire it is ?

Conduit, BX (metal armor), NM (non metallic) cable like romex.

Usually, but not always, if it has red, black and white... it has a separate ground.
 
  #3  
Old 11-08-13, 03:26 PM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
It's NM (copper). No ground. Just white, black and red.
I didn't look in the panel yet to see if I can see a ground there.
Hopefully the ground is not located outside of the box I'm using, I think sometimes in the past they would do this. I mean leave the ground wire outside of the metal box and connect it to the back of the box with bolt and nut.
 
  #4  
Old 11-09-13, 07:34 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Any new input please on using neutral as ground?
 
  #5  
Old 11-09-13, 07:47 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
You best option is to run new cable if this is not metallic cable or metal conduit. Next best would be to run a ground wire from the panel. Code wise a wire smaller then #4 can not be redesignated as a ground so the white can't be remarked as ground. On 120/240 appliances you can connect the the ground and neutral inside the appliance if the circuit is grandfathered. However this is not a 120/240 appliance based on your description. It is a 240 volt appliance and needs a ground. My interpretation is nothing in the code permits the use of the neutral outside of the appliance as ground and it can not be re-designated if smaller then #4 but manufacturers instructions probably require a ground so you need a ground either added or new cable. Of course others may disagree.
 
  #6  
Old 11-09-13, 08:02 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Code wise a wire smaller then #4 can not be redesignated as a ground so the white can't be remarked as ground.
#4 seems excessive. A #8 stranded wire could not function as a ground?
You know electric, I don't, but if a #8 can carry current, why can't it be used as ground when it may never carry any current or very little?


One more question please:
I forgot to check if metal box is grounded.
Years ago sometimes boxes were grounded at rear of box, out of sight.
If I get a good reading between box and both hots, would you suggest a pigtail ground to box and cooktop, capping off white?
I'm asking because I want to know if I need to visually see the ground or simply know it's there based on readings.
 
  #7  
Old 11-09-13, 08:50 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,379
#4 seems excessive. A #8 stranded wire could not function as a ground?
You know electric, I don't, but if a #8 can carry current, why can't it be used as ground when it may never carry any current or very little?
Ray gave you an answer based on code compliance, that's all you will get here. Sure, a #8 is plenty big for the ground, #10 is all that would be required by code. The issue is that the #8 is white and not bare or green.

Years ago sometimes boxes were grounded at rear of box, out of sight.
That was a common practice at one time for receptacle circuits, but I never have seen that on a range circuit. If you want to check, start by opening the panel and looking to see if there is a ground wire in the cable, but I doubt there is. I believe the easiest way to do this is also what ray meantioned.

you need a ground either added or new cable.
You probably need no more than a #10 ground as long as the circuit isn't over 60 amps. You can run a green #10 THHN ground conductor from the panel along the path of the cable and ty wrapped to the cable to the junction box you are planning to use. OR.....you can run a new 8-3 cable.
 
  #8  
Old 11-09-13, 09:24 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
Thanks Joe,
I'm going to wish the white green or return cooktop for one that requires neutral.
It's just too much investment to run new cable. House framing is not easily navigated. Panel is in the worst possible place for running cable or ground.
First I will look inside panel and see if cable has a ground. Then I'll know it has to be somewhere near the box. Maybe it was cut off years ago.
 
  #9  
Old 11-09-13, 09:34 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,041
It's just too much investment to run new cable. House framing is not easily navigated. Panel is in the worst possible place for running cable or ground.
Give us details and maybe pictures and we may have some Ideas. Is the breaker box in the basement? Is it an unfinished basement? Is the cooktop on an outside wall or next to cabinets that connect to cabinets on an outside wall? Whats on the other side of the wall behind the cooktop?
 
  #10  
Old 11-09-13, 02:58 PM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wet side of Washington state.
Posts: 18,399
Is this a permitted and inspected installation? Although the National Electrical Code prohibits re-identifying any conductor of less than #4 gauge you need to remember that the NEC has no force of law UNTIL it is enacted into law at a local, regional or state level. The enabling legislation CAN, and often does, add to or delete from the model code. I would check with the LOCAL electrical inspection agency to see if they will allow you to re-identify the white neutral as a green equipment grounding conductor.

The reason behind the NEC prohibition is that the code-making panel decided that in the smaller sizes it was no financial hardship to a contractor (emphasis mine) to meet this requirement. Although I have known inspectors that absolutely would not budge on this item I have also known inspectors that had no problem whatsoever in allowing a homeowner to re-identify smaller conductors.
 
  #11  
Old 11-10-13, 06:35 AM
Handyone's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: U.S.
Posts: 5,451
I would check with the LOCAL electrical inspection agency to see if they will allow you to re-identify the white neutral as a green equipment grounding conductor
I'll check with the city inspectors. It's seems a shame to waste a perfectly good #8 copper wire that's just sitting there begging to be used.

Thanks
 
  #12  
Old 11-10-13, 07:50 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,587
Returning the cooktop for one the requires a neutral really serves no purpose. The cooktop should still be grounded for safety.

Can you supply pictures of the cable and receptacle?
 
  #13  
Old 11-10-13, 07:56 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
#4 seems excessive. A #8 stranded wire could not function as a ground?
You know electric, I don't, but if a #8 can carry current, why can't it be used as ground when it may never carry any current or very little?
Ray wasn't saying that you needed a #4 ground.
Originally Posted by CasualJoe
Sure, a #8 is plenty big for the ground, #10 is all that would be required by code.
Ray was saying that #4 is the smallest wire that the NEC allows to be redesignated - tagged with colored electrical tape or permanent marker - to serve a function different from the one that it's insulation color indicates.

That said,
Originally Posted by Furd
the NEC has no force of law UNTIL it is enacted into law at a local, regional or state level. The enabling legislation CAN, and often does, add to or delete from the model code.
IOW, All codes is local. Check with your local jurisdiction.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes