210.52 does this wall require a receptacle?

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  #1  
Old 12-04-13, 07:18 AM
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Question 210.52 does this wall require a receptacle?

I recently purchased a home and am looking to upgrade the electrical so it meets code.

There is one wall that I am not sure if it will require me to add a receptacle or not. I’ve attached a couple photos to try and help. The kitchen is open to the living room. The wall starts in the kitchen through the door you can see in the 2nd pic. There is then 10’ of cabinets, which I believe does have to count as wall space. After the cabinets end, there is another 2 ˝” feet of wall that extends past the cabinets and into the living room. Does this require a receptacle? I am not clear because couldn’t I technically include that wall as part of the kitchen? Yes, it extends into the carpeted area, but so does the kitchen island countertop. Technically speaking, where does the kitchen end and the living room start?

Thanks!

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Old 12-04-13, 07:33 AM
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I think I see a receptacle to the left of the circle in the first picture. I would have installed one where you circled but am not sure it would have been required.

The code is not retroactive with a few exceptions. Why are you asking about the code?
 
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Old 12-04-13, 08:15 AM
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Thanks pcboss!

You had also answered my previous post regarding outlet spacing and AFCI's. I checked with the City and it turns out I will need to do AFCI's for about 8 circuits. Ouch-$$. I understand it's for my protection though.

I'm asking because I'm trying to gauge how much work I have ahead of me. The original part of the house, which is not shown in the photos, has really old wiring. Most likely from '48 when the house was built. There are no ground outlets, only 2 prong receptacles, etc. I'm planning on ripping out the old wires, putting in all new receptacles, light fixtures, switches, etc. I noticed that some of the rooms though don't have receptacles within 12' of one another. This applies to the 2 bedrooms and the formal dining room. The bedrooms only have 3 outlets, the outside walls are missing them.

I wanted to use this as an example to try and help me understand the requirements better to help me determine if I need to add receptacles or if I will be OK working with what I have. I will pull a permit and have an inspection, so want to be sure I have all of my ducks in a row. Perhaps photos of the bedrooms would have been more helpful to my question?

My concern is that since I plan on basically replacing/updating everything, that the inspector is going to require me to add another receptacle in those rooms. Not a big deal, except they are in a very inconvenient location and the walls are made with a cement board type material, so it's not the easiest to work with.

Thank you for your help
 
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Old 12-04-13, 08:23 AM
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Your area may have a rehab code that differs from the electrical code requirements. Also adding receptacles to the bedroom may not have any impact or other parts of the house. A phone conversation with the inspector or a site visit can clear up many of your questions.
 
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Old 12-04-13, 09:09 AM
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If you want to save yourself work, choose tall moldings and mount the receptacles right in the molding.
 
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Old 12-04-13, 01:10 PM
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I will need to do AFCI's for about 8 circuits.
What version of the code is your locality on? AFCI breakers require dedicated neutral conductors on each circuit. If you have any multiwire branch circuits, you'll need to use a 2 pole AFCI breaker, but not all companies make them. I have not heard of any jurisdiction requiring a 100% code update without a major remodeling job.
 
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Old 12-05-13, 02:48 PM
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I got an email back from the inspector. He said we are on NEC 2011. He also sent me a PDF with lots of code questions and answers. He said it should answer most of my questions. Based on this, I will need to install the AFCI breakers and also add some receptacles into the bedrooms and dining room.

However, I am still unsure about one of my original questions below. In the picture, will a receptacle be required in the circled area? The wall space is greater than 2', however I am not sure if the wall is technically classified as being in a habitable room or if it would be considered part of the kitchen. ?

Thanks!

Here is a link to the document he sent to me: http://www.southstpaul.org/DocumentCenter/View/98

My AFCI concerns are answered in item # 4 and my spacing concerns in item# 11
 
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Old 12-05-13, 03:42 PM
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I would err on the side of caution. Unless it will be difficult to add, I'd just add one. Can't be busted for one too many receptacles.
 
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Old 12-05-13, 03:46 PM
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Based on the flooring difference if I were inspecting your job I would consider that as the start of the kitchen and would require a receptacle within 6' of that corner where you show the circle. If unsure I would email the pic to the inspector. They are the ones that are going to inspect your job.
 
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Old 12-05-13, 04:37 PM
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Here is a link to the document he sent to me: http://www.southstpaul.org/DocumentCenter/View/98
Those should be the requirements for a new home. Why are you trying to upgrade your electrical system to the very latest code? Is the city requiring you to do this. If you are attempting to meet the 2011 code you'll also have to be sure you have a neutral conductor in every switch box and you'll need to be using tamper resistant receptacles.
 
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Old 12-05-13, 11:12 PM
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No one has required me to do it. I just want to do it for my own peace of mind. The original half of the house has all old wiring. It's the thick black cable that basically crumbles in your hands. I don't trust it. The receptacles are old and do not have ground. The wire does not have ground. The breaker box has about 10 circuits.. several of them include lights and receptacles on the same circuit. I want to break those up into the correct circuits and add some new ones for some additional lights and receptacles. It's just a big mess overall. There are also wires hanging down with wire nuts on them exposed in the ceiling joists and not contained in junction boxes. In doing so, I will need to pull a permit and then have an inspection. I'm realizing that there are a lot of other things that would not be considered up to 2011 NEC. A lot of it is just a pain because it isn't new construction, there is no physical addition of any sort and the areas that I need to add the receptacles are just very hard to work with. I am aware of the TR receptacles.I want to feel comfortable knowing that I'm living in a safe house, but it's becoming discouraging.
 
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Old 12-06-13, 07:43 AM
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I hear you, but if you think vertical for your wiring runs, it may help. Wiring does not have to be secured if it's fished through a finished wall. Anytime you can come up from the basement or down from the attic, all you need in the wall is a cutout for the old-work box to be mounted in.
 
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Old 12-25-13, 10:18 AM
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If the distance from the outlet on the other wall to the cabinets is less then 6 feet. You are fine. The code is written with the lamp with 6ft cord example. If you can set a lamp next to that cabinet and plug the cord in the outlet on the next wall you are ok. So if its less then 6ft nothing else matters.
 
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Old 12-25-13, 10:26 AM
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Gtdownonit, welcome to the forums! To avoid getting into a spitting contest with the inspector, rules state any wall of 2' or more shall have a receptacle on it. I'm going to stick my neck out and say this wall to the cabinets is right at 2' or more. It won't matter about the 6' distance on extension cords, as there are no exceptions, except common sense. He may persuade the inspector to waive it since there is a receptacle so close, and that is why we suggested letting him/her see the situation first rather than making a mess of a good wall unnecessarily.
 
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