New 20 amp kitchen counter circuit junction question

Reply

  #1  
Old 12-05-13, 03:34 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
New 20 amp kitchen counter circuit junction question

I wish to add a 20 amp circuit with a 20 amp GFCI receptacle for the kitchen counter. It will be fairly easy for me to run the new 12/2 romex (unfinished basement) but the current 15 amp supplies the counter receptacle, a couple of kitchen lights ,and the front hallway, so I need to keep this circuit intact. In the kitchen it appears that the circuit runs power then receptacle then switch (on other side of stud in kitchen) then light.

Any suggestions on how I might utilize the same counter receptacle location for the new circuit, but also maintain the 15 amp circuit (it runs through the current box)? I thought about using a deep box as a junction for the 15 amp and as the receptacle box for the new 15 amp GFCI? Would the electrical inspector approve this? Or perhaps a double gang box with a some sort of wall cover over the non GFCI half. Is there a special cover (or box) for this?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
Hal Huff
Toronto, Canada.
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 12-05-13, 04:19 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
I thought about using a deep box as a junction for the 15 amp and as the receptacle box for the new 15 amp GFCI? Would the electrical inspector approve this?
You should fine doing this.
 
  #3  
Old 12-05-13, 04:47 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,587
Another option would be to install a deep 4" square box and install a single gang plaster ring.
 
  #4  
Old 12-05-13, 05:04 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks Canuk - would a 3" box be deep enough? (or 3 1/2)?

Hal
 
  #5  
Old 12-05-13, 05:08 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
single gang plaster ring
I imagine, the offset might be a problem? I am disrupting the hall wall, not the kitchen.
 
  #6  
Old 12-05-13, 05:13 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
If I understand your OP there's currently two 14/2 cables with a receptacle--- what size is the box now?
 
  #7  
Old 12-05-13, 05:56 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Three 14/2 cables, one of which heads to the adjacent (other side of stud) switch. The box is original (very small plastic) from the 1960s.
 
  #8  
Old 12-05-13, 06:16 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
ah --- then 3 inch deep will be the bare minimum and it will be tight.
 
  #9  
Old 12-05-13, 06:27 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Well, perhaps best to use the 4 inch square box with plaster ring - and add the expanding list of rooms that need to be dry-walled and painted.

Thanks guys.
 
  #10  
Old 12-05-13, 06:38 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
In the kitchen it appears that the circuit runs power [from the hallway?] then [the kitchen?] receptacle then switch (on other side of stud in kitchen) then light.

Any suggestions on how I might utilize the same counter receptacle location for the new circuit, but also maintain the 15 amp circuit (it runs through the current box)?
Just trying to clarify what you're trying to do. Did I get it right?

I imagine, the offset might be a problem? I am disrupting the hall wall, not the kitchen.
Are you saying that you're planning to remove drywall in the hallway to do this? That shouldn't be necessary.

Three 14/2 cables, one of which heads to the adjacent (other side of stud) switch. The box is original (very small plastic) from the 1960s.
I get 11.5 in.[SUP]3[/SUP] of box fill. A 2-1/2" deep old work box should have 12.5 in.[SUP]3[/SUP] of space available. Anything deeper than that is all to the good.
 
  #11  
Old 12-05-13, 06:47 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
The 4 inch isn't necessary but it's up to you. With three 14/2 plus the 12/2 plus the receptacle and wire nuts --- the 3x2x3 will pass code.
 
  #12  
Old 12-05-13, 07:13 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
perhaps best to use the 4 inch square box with plaster ring - and add the expanding list of rooms that need to be dry-walled and painted.
A 3x2x2-1/2" box is all you need for this project. You shouldn't have to open any drywall to do this.
 
  #13  
Old 12-05-13, 08:18 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
The Hallway is already under renovation so I've opened up more drywall to make the pulling (12/2) easier. Regardless I'll use the 3 x 2 x 2 box and avoid damaging the kitchen drywall. Thanks for the advice, and for sparing the Kitchen demo for another day.

Hal
 
  #14  
Old 12-05-13, 08:36 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
You won't be able to use the 3X2X2 box for what you planned.
 
  #15  
Old 12-05-13, 08:41 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
OK confirmed; 3x2x3 it is.
 
  #16  
Old 12-05-13, 10:39 PM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
With the number of wires you're dealing with, a 2x3x3-1/2 wouldn't hurt. Yes, those wires are all legal in a 2x3x2-1/2, but more room is always easier to work in.
 
  #17  
Old 12-06-13, 07:06 AM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
Up here 3 inch deep boxes are common sizes as well . I think down in the US you guys jump from 2-1/2 to 3-1/2.
 
  #18  
Old 12-06-13, 08:33 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
Probably so, Canuk - I don't recall seeing a 3" box.

Natup, if you like the ides of installing a 1900 (4x4) box for the space, you could put a 2-gang ring on it and mount a standard receptacle next to the GFCI and protect it too. That would give you four places to plug in and cut down on the patching required in the kitchen.
 
  #19  
Old 12-06-13, 08:49 AM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
Since the OP is in Canada that's why the recommendation of the 3 inch box.
 
  #20  
Old 12-06-13, 09:12 AM
Nashkat1's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 8,470
I got that, but do you guys not have 3-1/2" boxes available? I'm installing one of those this afternoon for a location that only has 12-2/G in and out, to give me more room to splice everything behind the recessed receptacle I'm mounting in it.
 
  #21  
Old 12-06-13, 03:28 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
The 3X2X3-1/2 are available but not used as much as 2-1/2 & 3 inch boxes --- of course it all depends on box fill requirements.

Question --- do you guys down there count one pair wire nuts as one conductor in your calculations ?
 
  #22  
Old 12-06-13, 04:39 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Natup, if you like the ides of installing a 1900 (4x4) box for the space, you could put a 2-gang ring on it and mount a standard receptacle next to the GFCI and protect it too. That would give you four places to plug in and cut down on the patching required in the kitchen.
Sounds like a practical idea. Or, perhaps I could just gang two 3 inch deep boxes?

Am I correct to assume this order: power then GFCI then 20 amp standard receptacle? Does code allow this near a sink?

Another question: in a tight space situation (i.e. near box capacity) how much cable do you typically keep (i.e. inches proud of box face)?
 
  #23  
Old 12-06-13, 05:29 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
Sounds like a practical idea. Or, perhaps I could just gang two 3 inch deep boxes?
Yep -- if you get the gangable boxes.


Am I correct to assume this order: power then GFCI then 20 amp standard receptacle? Does code allow this near a sink?
Line in to GFCI --- load out to other receptacle and yes it would be allowed because of the GFCI protection and maximum of two duplex on one circuit.

Another question: in a tight space situation (i.e. near box capacity) how much cable do you typically keep (i.e. inches proud of box face)?
The *cable* contains the wires (conductors).
You don't want more than a 1/4 inch of the cable sheathing exposed in the box (the inspector will look for this ). The wires ( conductors ) are about 6 inches long.
 
  #24  
Old 12-06-13, 09:06 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks all for your help. Sorry Canuk I meant wire length.

I decided to go with the 3 inch deep box - man it's difficult to get to the back of these (btw for Nashkat1- they are described at home depot as for thermostat use)

I have a question regarding the ground wires. I've heard that with two circuits in the same box all the grounds need to be connected and that a wire nut is OK for this as an alternative to crimping. If this is true, why not alternatively utilize the ground screws, which even in the double plastic boxes connect the grounds?

I did utilize a wire nut in the 3 inch box to connect all grounds. I hope this doesn't push me over capacity.

Hal
 
  #25  
Old 12-06-13, 09:23 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,587
WIre nuts and pigtails do not count towards box fill under the NEC.

Our grounds need to be spliced. They cannot depend on the box to connect them.
 
  #26  
Old 12-06-13, 09:53 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Some of the old wires in the box are quite short (less than 6 inches). Would the inspector be looking for these to be extended (pigtails)? If so, this box would be getting extra really stuffed.
 

Last edited by natup; 12-06-13 at 10:34 PM.
  #27  
Old 12-07-13, 03:23 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
Thanks all for your help. Sorry Canuk I meant wire length.
No worries -- just want to bring you up to speed on some terminology. The inspector likes to here the correct terms coming from a DIYer -- it gives them a sense that you have some understanding of what your working with.

I decided to go with the 3 inch deep box - man it's difficult to get to the back of these (btw for Nashkat1- they are described at home depot as for thermostat use)
Lol --- I told you it will be tight.

I have a question regarding the ground wires. I've heard that with two circuits in the same box all the grounds need to be connected and that a wire nut is OK for this as an alternative to crimping. If this is true, why not alternatively utilize the ground screws, which even in the double plastic boxes connect the grounds?
Actually, the CEC does not require all ground conductors to be joined together with twisting , crimps or wire nuts --- nothing says you can't join them but you don't have to. Besides, the less wire nuts the more space you have.
I believe though, it's required by the NEC in the US , which is another subtle difference between the two standards.
See attached pics.


I did utilize a wire nut in the 3 inch box to connect all grounds. I hope this doesn't push me over capacity.
A single wire nut shouldn't but it may be a little more cramped.

Some of the old wires in the box are quite short (less than 6 inches). Would the inspector be looking for these to be extended (pigtails)? If so, this box would be getting extra really stuffed.
Yep --- that's what you find in old work. The only *pigtails* I see would be to the switch ??

You might think about putting the new GFCI and it's wiring over on the right side gang and the standard receptacle on the side with the existing wiring.

Reason being , the GFCI is more bulky whereas the standard receptacle being less will give more room in behind for the wiring.
 
Attached Images    
  #28  
Old 12-07-13, 03:27 PM
canuk's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 293
WIre nuts and pigtails do not count towards box fill under the NEC.
Every pair of wire nuts counts as one conductor in the CEC box calcs.
 
  #29  
Old 12-08-13, 08:55 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 13
Thanks again Canuk (and others)

Hal
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes