mixing outlets on 10 awg

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  #1  
Old 01-05-14, 09:47 AM
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mixing outlets on 10 awg

You guys were so helpful last time I thought I would try a second post!
Thank you in advance.

Can I run a 10/4 awg wire from a 30 amp breaker to box, then connect a 20 amp 240 outlet AND a 15 amp 120 outlet. I was going to just pigtail the 10awg with 2 12 awg wires and hook up the outlets.

10/4 feed so I can bring the neutral for the 120 outlet.

If not, can I just use a 120 volt 20 amp outlet?

My thought is the 10 awg wire will never carry more than 30 amps and if it did it would trip the breaker. Each outlet is connected with 12 qauge wire so they are safe. I don't see the problem but the guy at the electrical supply store said no.

Can anybody explain? Is there an alternative or do you have to have seperate supply lines.

BTW it's to power a tablesaw and a router, unlikely they will ever be on at the same time but it is possible. The tablesaw is rated 240v 13 amps. The router 120 volts 12 amp
 
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Old 01-05-14, 09:59 AM
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A 15 or 20 amp receptacle cannot have overcurrent protection greater than 20 amps. To do what you plan you would need a sub panel.
 
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Old 01-05-14, 10:14 AM
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A sub panel will also give you more circuits to run later. A small sub panel would be only about $30. You would run your 240 and 120v circuits from the sub panel.
 
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Old 01-05-14, 10:15 AM
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thanks pcboss

I can't have a subpanel because it's a hanging outlet (in the middle of the room) 10/4 sjoow wire with wire mess strain relief on top and bottom.

Can I change the breaker to 20 amp

It would mean I couldn't use both tools at once but I wasn't really planning on it anyways.

That would be
20 amp breaker 10/4 awg wire running to a pigtail of 12 awg and 2 outlets

Thank you.
 
  #5  
Old 01-05-14, 11:58 AM
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I can't have a subpanel because it's a hanging outlet (in the middle of the room) 10/4 sjoow wire with wire mess strain relief on top and bottom
Plan "A": Put the subpanel on the wall and run two cords.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 01-06-14 at 08:19 AM. Reason: Remove non-compliant advice at Member's request
  #6  
Old 01-05-14, 12:44 PM
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Sub panel or junction box mounted. You could change the breaker but still need a demarkation point at the junction, fastened and covered, but accessible. Your 12 wire can come from this junction. I question the 10-4 sooj being run as a feeder through walls. Is it in conduit?
 
  #7  
Old 01-05-14, 12:48 PM
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The table saw and the router are motor circuits , so Art 430 would apply in designing these type of Branch-Circuits.

The ampacity of the conductors = the Full-Load Current X 125%.

The rating of the breaker is determined by Table 430.50 which permits a breaker rating = the Full-Load Current X 250%
 
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Old 01-05-14, 07:07 PM
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I can't have a subpanel because it's a hanging outlet (in the middle of the room) 10/4 sjoow wire with wire mess strain relief on top and bottom.
Sure you can have a subpanel. Plan "A" in Posternine's suggestions is the compliant way to do it:
Originally Posted by posternine
Plan "A": Put the subpanel on the wall and run two cords. Plan "B" Two receptacles connected to small subpanel with short nipples and subpanel suspended by chain such as used for fluorescent lights. Plan "B-1": Fasten receptacle boxes to back of subpanel.
Chandler clarified it:
Originally Posted by chandler
Sub panel or junction box mounted.
Can I change the breaker to 20 amp
You should for the table saw. The 120V circuit for the router can be 15A.
 
  #9  
Old 01-05-14, 09:13 PM
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clarification

Ok, I love all the input but hanging a small breaker box from the ceiling seems unnecessarily bulky?

What is the problem with a 20 amp breaker feeding 10/4 awg romex from the main panel to a junction box in the ceiling. At this point (in the box) I switch to 10/4 sjoow which hangs from a wire mesh strain relief attached to the junction box (box is screwed directly to a joist) and then at the end of the 10/4 sjoow there is another junction box (with strain relief) and a 240v / 20 amp outlet and a 120v / 15 amp outlet.

Neither outlet will exceed total amp x 125%, the 10/4 is overkill but I already bought it and the breaker is 20 amps?

Seems legit. What am I missing?

I am really trying to keep both circuits on one wire because I don't want a ton of wires hanging from the ceiling.

Thanks again

p.s. maybe I didn't understand the hanging breaker box idea?
 
  #10  
Old 01-05-14, 10:12 PM
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hanging a small breaker box from the ceiling seems unnecessarily bulky
It also isn't a compliant solution.
Originally Posted by Nashkat1
Plan "A" in Posternine's suggestions is the compliant way to do it
and
Originally Posted by chandler
Sub panel or junction box mounted
What is the problem with a 20 amp breaker feeding 10/4 awg romex from the main panel to a junction box in the ceiling.
One 20A breaker can't feed these two circuits. You need one 20A 240V circuit for your table saw and one 15A 120V circuit for your router.

the 10/4 is overkill but I already bought it and the breaker is 20 amps
Yes, 10AWG is oversized for these circuits, but you can install it if you want to.

I am really trying to keep both circuits on one wire because I don't want a ton of wires hanging from the ceiling.
It's only one cable or two cables. It's not a ton. That said, one xx-4 cable can be used to feed both circuits if and only if your table saw is a pure 240V appliance. If it's a 120/240V appliance, it will need a separate neutral. In that case, you will need to run 12-3/G for it and 14-2/G (or 12-2/G) for your router.

p.s. maybe I didn't understand the hanging breaker box idea?
A hanging breaker box won't comply with code requirements. If you need to add a breaker box - and it doesn't sound like you do - it needs to be securely mounted to the building structure.
 
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Old 01-06-14, 10:38 PM
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final clarifications

Thank you so much. You are a fabulous moderator!

I already bought and hung the 10/4 wire, no returning it! The tablesaw is a true 240v saw. Two hots and a ground, no neutral. (I'll double check when I go home, it's a sawstop profesional 3 hp)

So if I follow you correctly, I am ok if my tablesaw is true 240 and I swapvout the breaker to a 20 amp

20 amp breaker to 10/3 romex to a junction box switching to 10/4 sjoow with strain relief to a hanging box with a 240 recepticle and a 120 recepticle.

The strain reliefs are $20 each ($40 per hanging wire) and the sjoow wire is pretty expensive as well. Plus hanging wires get in the way, if there was a cheaper hanging method I'd love to know about it, I would run two seperate circuits if I could hang the as one?

Thanks again. I am learning a lot. I hope to contribute back sometime.

Hillel
 
  #12  
Old 01-07-14, 08:34 AM
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Too late now but 10-5 sjoow from a small wall mounted subpanel would have probably worked. I'm pretty sure that would have been code compliant but wait for Nash to respond if you consider it.
 
  #13  
Old 01-07-14, 09:01 AM
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20A dual breaker, 10-4 drop, this receptacle:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]24325[/ATTACH]
 
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  #14  
Old 01-07-14, 12:01 PM
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You're welcome.

I already bought and hung the 10/4 wire, no returning it! The tablesaw is a true 240v saw. Two hots and a ground, no neutral. (I'll double check when I go home, it's a sawstop profesional 3 hp)
Since you're only using it for the drop you could just pitch it - but it may be OK. Here's the idea:

So if I follow you correctly, I am ok if my tablesaw is true 240 and I swapvout the breaker to a 20 amp
Two circuits and two breakers.

20 amp breaker to 10/3 romex to a junction box switching to 10/4 sjoow with strain relief to a hanging box with a 240 recepticle and a 120 recepticle.
No. One 20A 2-pole 240V breaker t0 12-2/G Romex® to the J-box to the red and black in the SJOOW cord, and one 20A single-pole 120V breaker t0 12-2/G Romex® to the J-box to the blue and white in the SJOOW cord. All grounds spliced together and the box bonded to ground.

In the hanging box, I would mount one 20A 240V simplex receptacle for the table saw and one 20A 120V receptacle for the router. I would make the 240V receptacle unique - probably a twist-lock - so that a standard 120V plug could not be accidentally plugged in there. Bond this box to ground also.

The strain reliefs are $20 each ($40 per hanging wire) and the sjoow wire is pretty expensive as well. Plus hanging wires get in the way, if there was a cheaper hanging method I'd love to know about it, I would run two seperate circuits if I could hang the as one?
I think so, as described above. I'm also waiting for some of the other pros to critique my suggestion.

One question: Which is more important, saving money or installing in compliance with life safety requirements?
 
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Old 01-07-14, 06:48 PM
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It looks ok to me. Technically sound and safe. Since all the circuits originate in the same panel sharing the ground is fine also.
 
  #16  
Old 01-07-14, 10:32 PM
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how to bond to ground

I see the two circuits coming into the 10/4 sjoow but how would I bond the receptacles or the box to ground. The 10/4 sjoow doesn't have a ground so all four wires are being used for the 2 circuits (2 hots on the 240 and a hot and a neutral on the 120)

Safety is my main concern the money isn't that important.

Is it ever legal to have a 240 and a 110 coming from one breaker, that is why I bought the 10/4 wire. 2 hots a ground and a neutral.

Maybe an extension cord on the ground is the way to power the router! I was trying to avoid trip hazards but hanging wires isn't all that great either!

The outlet I was planing on using was a mixed 250 / 125 outlet I found on amazon.

Leviton 5842-I 20 Amp, 125/250 Volt, Narrow Body Duplex Receptacle, Straight Blade, Commercial Grade, Self Grounding, Dual Voltage, Ivory - Amazon.com

its called a Leviton 5842-I 20 Amp, 125/250 Volt, Narrow Body Duplex Receptacle

Hillel
 

Last edited by hiposner; 01-07-14 at 11:03 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-08-14, 12:29 AM
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Is it ever legal to have a 240 and a 110 coming from one breaker, that is why I bought the 10/4 wire. 2 hots a ground and a neutral.
If it is, this is the first I've heard of it. That's not to say it isn't. It may be. There are plenty of things I've never heard of.

That said, if I were doing this I would replace the 10-4 cord with 10-5 cord, as Posternine suggested earlier. That would give you 3 hots, one neutral and a ground, and you could install and wire from two breakers. (I don't work with cord often, and I forgot that the ground counts in those.) I've also un-deleted guy48065's earlier post about the dual-voltage receptacle.

I found that receptacle on the Leviton site earlier. I didn't see as much technical information as i would have liked.

Y'all can work that one out.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 09:49 AM
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"240 and 110 (sic) coming from one breaker"

This is possible with a 3-pole breaker. The "live" conductor of the "110 volt" Branch Circuit would have to terminate of either the "top" or "bottom" CB terminal.

There is a practical reason for such a connection; given two circuits, one 120v and the other 240 v , a "fault" in either circuit would de-energize both circuits so neither could operate independently.
 
  #19  
Old 01-08-14, 10:05 AM
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With the 10-4 cord there is no possibility of running a 240V and a 120V grounded circuit from separate or combined breakers.

Besides, the OP has single-phase 120/240V service, not 3-phase 120/208V.
 
  #20  
Old 01-08-14, 04:14 PM
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Wouldn't the 4 conductors be:
2 hots to the 240 recep with one short jumper to the 120 recep
1 neutral for the 120
1 ground for the 120

with both hots from a normal dual-pole breaker
?
 
  #21  
Old 01-08-14, 05:16 PM
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Wouldn't the 4 conductors be:
2 hots to the 240 recep with one short jumper to the 120 recep
1 neutral for the 120
1 ground for the 120

with both hots from a normal dual-pole breaker
I've seen it done that way and I've also seen it with two separate circuits where the two circuits must be fed from a 3 pole breaker because two circuits on the same yoke requires a common disconnect. A 3 pole breaker can be used in a 1 or 3-phase panel to accomplish the common disconnect.

This is assuming a receptacle like or similar to the Leviton 5842 is being used.
 
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Old 01-08-14, 10:19 PM
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You could also install two receptacles at the ceiling and each cord would plug in directly.
 
  #23  
Old 01-09-14, 06:49 AM
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PJ Wrote:
You could also install two receptacles at the ceiling and each cord would plug in directly
Is that similar to what Hiposner asked in the first post (except breaker size)?
Can I run a 10/4 awg wire from a 30 amp breaker to box, then connect a 20 amp 240 outlet AND a 15 amp 120 outlet. I was going to just pigtail the 10awg with 2 12 awg wires and hook up the outlets.
 
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