Max whips out of one box

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  #1  
Old 01-16-14, 12:27 PM
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Max whips out of one box

I created a new kitchen island. It is 10 feet long. The layout is 24" cab (a), 30" sink cab (b), 24" dishwasher (c), 15" cab (d), and 15" cab (e).

The wiring comes up the floor and into an outlet in (a) that services the outside of the island. I also need wiring for a sink disposal, dishwasher, and outlets in cabs (d) and (e).

The easiest method is to run greenfield to the sink cabinet, then 3 whips from that box to the dw, disposal and outlet in (d). Then run outlet (e) off the outlet in (d).

Is 3 whips coming out of one box with a switch (for the disposal) too many?
 
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  #2  
Old 01-16-14, 12:43 PM
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DW and GD can be on the same circuit but the receptacles can not be on the same circuit as the DW and GD. Receptacles by code must be on a 20 amp GFCI protected circuit with no other loads except other kitchen receptacles.
 
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Old 01-16-14, 12:46 PM
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Is 3 whips coming out of one box with a switch (for the disposal) too many

That depends on the size of the box you are using. Are you feeding this box with more than one circuit? The existing circuit can feed the other outlets but you will need at least one more (possibly two depending on local code) circuit for the dw and disposal. You need to calculate box fill for the amount of conductors that will go in the box and size the box appropriately.
 
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Old 01-16-14, 12:48 PM
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You have to consider the number of Branch-Circuit conductors from the panel that will connect in the box, possibly a 3-wire , 120 / 240 , 15 amp , multi-conductor Branch-Circuit for the DW and the disposal. You'll need two #12 conductors for the receptacles.

This gives 5 "Feed-In" conductors and 6 "Feed-Out" conductors + 1 device ( the switch) I advise a "deep" 4 - 11/16 " outlet box.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 07:03 AM
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The place was built in 2000 and I am keeping the circuit exactly as built. One circuit fed the dw, disposal, and counter outlets.

The fridge is on a separate circuit as is the range. The microwave is not on this circuit either.

I basically moved the configuration from a wall to an island. I am not increasing the number of outlets or configuration.

I also believe the code is based on the load and does not state that a dw must be on it's own circuit. It must not use more than 50% of a branch circuit's load capacity. It is a Bosch dw that uses $30 of energy a year according to the sticker.

MY question was more about fitting it all in one box, neatness, etc.
 

Last edited by michaeljc70; 01-17-14 at 07:20 AM.
  #6  
Old 01-17-14, 07:59 AM
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If I had a chance to fix something that was not correct or to code when the house was built I would. The appliances like the DW and gd are not allowed on the receptacle circuit.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 08:10 AM
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The place was built in 2000 and I am keeping the circuit exactly as built. One circuit fed the dw, disposal, and counter outlets.
That was a code violation when your house was built, but that doesn't surprise me in many rural areas of your state.

I also believe the code is based on the load and does not state that a dw must be on it's own circuit. It must not use more than 50% of a branch circuit's load capacity. It is a Bosch dw that uses $30 of energy a year according to the sticker.
This is a case of a kitchen which by NEC is not based on load. In a kitchen, the NEC calls for at least two small appliance branch circuits to feed the counter receptacles. These small appliance branch circuits cannot feed anything other than the counter receptacles, not the diposer, dishwaher, lights, nothing else. Following the manufacturer's instructions is required by the NEC, you should reference the Bosch installation instructions. My opinion is that I would want to at least correct the existing code violations if I were undertaking a major project like this.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 09:15 AM
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The installation manual refers to the NEC.

I do see that countertop outlets need 2 branches. Curious why. Say you have 2 sets of outlets. To have 2 circuits seems crazy.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 09:21 AM
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Say you have 2 sets of outlets. To have 2 circuits seems crazy.
Not after you turned on the microwave while the toaster oven and coffee maker were on.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 09:25 AM
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The kitchen has a high number of appliances that use large amounts of electricity. The code wants to provide a means to allow them to operate safely and without tripping the circuits unnecessarily.
 
  #11  
Old 01-17-14, 09:27 AM
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My microwave is plugged into a pantry in the kitchen. Maybe they counted that circuit as "countertop" outlets.

My brother recently had that happen. His house was built in the 1950s. His kitchen and living room wall were on the same circuit. Girlfriend had coffee pot, toaster oven and tv on and it blew out the LCD tv .
 
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Old 01-17-14, 09:31 AM
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The pantry and dining receptacles should be served by the 20 amp small appliance circuits.
 
  #13  
Old 01-17-14, 06:06 PM
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There are 6 circuits for a combined living/dining/kitchen. The code is the code, but I don't think that 6 circuits is lacking.

The code is for 200 sq ft studios to 20k sq foot houses. It hasn't been updated to take into account more energy efficient appliances. It makes assumptions. It is based on safety and interest groups (electricians). I would never do anything I thought was unsafe with electrical in my place. Worst case scenario, a circuit pops. I don't think that is devastating. If the walls were still open, I might add that 2nd circuit for counter outlets.

Of course, if I was being paid to do this, I would follow the code!

Illegal? Yes. So is going 56 miles an hour on most highways in my state. I think you need to exercise good judgement.
 
  #14  
Old 01-17-14, 06:23 PM
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The code is for 200 sq ft studios to 20k sq foot houses. It hasn't been updated to take into account more energy efficient appliances. It makes assumptions. It is based on safety and interest groups (electricians). I would never do anything I thought was unsafe with electrical in my place.
The NEC is updated every three years and takes into consideration the countertop appliances most often used in kitchens. If you are at all concerned with safety, my best recommendation would be to follow the code. The fact is, your house was not wired to code. I'd think you would want to do the best job possible since it is your home and try to correct it's deficiencies. I don't think you'll find anyone who contributes to this forum who would advocate otherwise.

Of course, if I was being paid to do this, I would follow the code!
A great deal of time and money goes into every code panel to find ways to keep it modern and address safety concerns from the industry. The NEC is not a publication designed to "make work" or "make money" by people within the industry.
 
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Old 01-17-14, 10:41 PM
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Out of a 2" x 3" switch box ? Not me . My practice is in and out of a switch box .

A 4" square box 1-1/2" deep , may be 1 in and 3 out , but with no device in the box .

Boxes and flex are not that $$$ . And you will be glad you did not crowd the box , when you go to make it up .

God bless
Wyr
 
  #16  
Old 01-17-14, 10:46 PM
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NEC requires a dedicated circuit to each fixed appliance . DW & garbage grinder = 2 circuits .

However , our city code permits both to be on the same circuit , since both will not likely be used at the same time . Your local code may vary .

God bless
Wyr
 
  #17  
Old 01-17-14, 10:54 PM
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55 mph speed limit ? Huh . We got rid of that years ago . Best I remember , it was another bright idea of Peanuts Carter ?

A few of our highway have 80 mph speed limit , lots are 75 .

You can stay where you are . I am glad I am where I am . :-)

By the way our local code requires an extra " kitchen " circuit and it is a good idea .

When I changed out the loadcenter , I added an additional 5 or 6 circuits . I think it had only 1 , best I recall . That solved a lot of headaches .

God bless
Wyr
 
  #18  
Old 01-18-14, 12:33 AM
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The code is the minimum required, not the ceiling.

I would hardly say the code is designed to make money for electricians. It is written by consensus groups including manufacturers, interested parties, trades people etc. Its purpose is life safety.
 
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