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How power a European induction range in the US, 240V, 50hz. Need inverter expert

How power a European induction range in the US, 240V, 50hz. Need inverter expert

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  #41  
Old 01-19-14, 03:31 PM
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Lol Taz. You crack me up. I have some woodworking tools that require different power supplies. No, they aren't home made. They came that way from the factory. Just because you aren't familiar with something doesn't make it dangerous. What is dangerous about having 2 plugs if it's wired correctly? You need to open your mind and realize there are other people out there that might think a little differently from you.

You know, I have a cat named Taz. No kidding, I really do. He's pretty friendly though.
 
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  #42  
Old 01-19-14, 03:34 PM
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Just.. Wow. As if Plan A with the stack of Chinese inverters wasn't dangerous enough, he wants to have two separate power supplies feeding the same appliance.
It's no worse than the time he wanted to run two parallel 12-2 cables 600 feet across the grass to run his compressor.

I'm certainly getting a kick out of this thread and am eager to hear how he gets the range up and going. I'm rooting for him! From a safe distance away.
 
  #43  
Old 01-19-14, 03:38 PM
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PLEASE keep the replies "on topic" here.
 
  #44  
Old 01-19-14, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jrlogan1 View Post
I have some woodworking tools that require different power supplies. No, they aren't home made. They came that way from the factory.
There's a huge difference between a device that is designed and listed to operate in such a manner (which in actuality you are most likely referring to the tool requiring a single 120/240V circuit, or a MWBC), and a range that has been hacked apart by an end user to work in a convoluted manner never envisioned by the manufacturer or any listing agency. Not to mention any device designed to operate from two circuits will undoubtedly specify that the two circuits must have common ground and neutral - meaning they must be on the same system (ie: you can't have circuit #1 on panel A from transformer A, and circuit #2 on panel B from transformer B). By definition you can not have the circuits on the same system with a SDS. The latest code revision even requires that devices fed by multiple circuits have a means of simultaneous disconnect for ALL circuits. Two separate plug and cords will not cut it.

Just because you aren't familiar with something doesn't make it dangerous. What is dangerous about having 2 plugs if it's wired correctly?
There's no such thing as "wired correctly" here. "Wired correctly" implies that one has not voided the listing certifications by hacking up and modifying the factory wiring.

You need to open your mind and realize there are other people out there that might think a little differently from you.
Lol ok, I don't have to open my mind to realize that there's the way you want to do it and then there's the right way. The two are mutually exclusive.

Connecting your hacked up appliance to both systems is a code violation. A device can not be using both grid power and a SDS simultaneously. But considering your history, you're probably just going to do it the way you want to anyway, so why bother asking our professional opinions? From the other thread I see I'm not the first person who had to tell you "do it right or don't do it at all"..
 

Last edited by taz420; 01-19-14 at 05:58 PM.
  #45  
Old 01-19-14, 08:00 PM
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Tolyn, or anybody else who actually has some ideas that are constructive to what I'm trying to achieve, I would like to hear your thoughts. Unfortunately the only replies I am getting are from children who don't know how to have a discussion.

Moderator, is it possible to ban Taz, Furd and Core from this thread? I feel they are causing an adversarial tone that is preventing any constructive input to my question. All I have done so far is ask a question and propose possible solutions for discussion. There is no cause for these responses I am getting, and I am certainly not getting any doityourself assistance. I am told over and over to 'do it right or don't do it.' Unfortunately, they fail to include the how to do it right part.
 
  #46  
Old 01-19-14, 08:07 PM
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No one is banned from adding something constructive to a thread but if the replies don't stay civil and "on topic"...... the thread will be closed.
 
  #47  
Old 01-19-14, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by jrlogan1 View Post
Moderator, is it possible to ban Taz, Furd and Core from this thread? I feel they are causing an adversarial tone that is preventing any constructive input to my question. All I have done so far is ask a question and propose possible solutions for discussion. There is no cause for these responses I am getting, and I am certainly not getting any doityourself assistance. I am told over and over to 'do it right or don't do it.' Unfortunately, they fail to include the how to do it right part.
You've been told how to do it right, but you keep insisting on finding a 'creative, open-minded' way to do it "in a $3k budget", which can not be done in any safe, legal, code-compliant way.

"Doing it right" does not involve a stack of cheap Chinese inverters, or hacking up the range to run on two different power systems.

"Doing it right" involves either a $12k/18k frequency converter or a $10k stack of listed "off-grid" inverters.

Perhaps you need a refresher on a key rule for the electrical forum..

Safety

Simply put, electricity is deadly and must be treated with respect for your safety and the safety of those around you. We will only give advice and allow posts that are consistent with established standards, codes and acceptable work practices. Moderators will delete posts and issues bans for clearly unsafe advice.
 
  #48  
Old 01-19-14, 08:20 PM
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As I said Taz, all you've told me is not to do it. You have not offered anything on how to 'do it right'. The inverters were my idea. The frequency converter was Astuff's. You have done nothing but belittle both, and now you claim them as if you told me how to do it right by those methods??

I have no interest in doing something that violates code here. I have no clue where you got the crazy idea that I did.

This is supposed to be a do it yourself forum. You haven't offered a shred of advice or encouragement on helping me do it, but exactly the opposite. You should check out don'tdoityourself.com. Might be a better fit for you.
 
  #49  
Old 01-19-14, 08:21 PM
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I understand their frustration, but I do agree that members do need to take a deep breath before posting.

You likely do not have 3 phase power available so I do not see that to be a good option. There is also nothing even close to 400 volts unless you start getting fancy with transformers. Fancy = a LOT of money.

I also agree with the others that you can not start adding relays to an appliance as that violates the listing of that appliance and would be a code violation.

The only way I can see this thing working is to use a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) which I believe others suggested. All the VFD's I have installed were for motors but I do not see any reason that it would not work of a range. I suggest you start looking at some of them online and contact dealers/manufactures and they might have suggestions. Just for the record you will need something that can handle the whole load, plus 125%, or about 85 amps @ 240 volts.

I also agree with PJmax, if we don't stay civil, this thread will be closed.

don'tdoityourself.com
Ok, that's kind of funny!
 
  #50  
Old 01-19-14, 08:28 PM
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Tolyn, what about doing an inverter system that could power the whole load? Any code violation there?
 
  #51  
Old 01-19-14, 08:48 PM
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If it is fed by one feed, and is protected on both the line side, and load side, with overcurrent protection, I do not see an issue. Does this have something to do with the inverters you posted in post #21? Where are you going to get 48 volts DC?

I think cost wise you would be better with the VFD or a frequency converter and skip all the inverters. This might be a good place to start: Frequency Converters - Magnus Power
 
  #52  
Old 01-19-14, 09:10 PM
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what about doing an inverter system that could power the whole load? Any code violation there?
Not if it's wired properly. The difficulty, if not the impossibility, will be starting with 120/240V 60Hz single-phase power and getting 400V at 50Hz out an inverter system.

That, I think, is why Tolyn said
Anything can be done for the right amount of money, the question is does it make financial sense to reinvent the wheel?
There is also nothing even close to 400 volts unless you start getting fancy with transformers.
and
The only way I can see this thing working is to use a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive) which I believe others suggested.
It is what it is.

In case you don't remember, or didn't hear at the time, the reason the Fukushima reactor meltdown didn't affect the whole country is that they have two separate, non-interconnected, non-overlapping electrical generation/transmission systems there. The two systems can't be connected because one is 50Hz and the other is 60Hz. It's one of the most difficult obstacles in the field. That's also why the other system couldn't be tapped to cover the lost power. They're really "off the grid" from each other.

So there you have the two obstacles that make this a very challenging quest.

On a different point,
Moderator, is it possible to ban Taz, Furd and Core from this thread?
IDK, frankly, and I'm not I'd want to if I could. You're free to add any member to your "ignore" list.

That said, I think they've raised some valid points. The need for civil discourse is something we can continue to keep an eye on, and intend to.

Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand
don'tdoityourself.com
Ok, that's kind of funny!
Yep.
 
  #53  
Old 01-20-14, 03:16 PM
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Thanks Tolyn and Nashkat. Appreciate the info.

To clarify, if I were to do the inverters, I would hook up with 240v 50hz power, not 400V. I would get the 48V from batteries and I would need some sizeable chargers for those batteries. This seemed within possibility when I was thinking I only need 10kW, but since it's code violation to rewire the stove, a 16kW inverter system would be cost prohibitive.

I'm not interested in a VFD because the motor would be huge, noisy, and have to run 24/7.

And the frequency converter is a good solution, but cost prohibitive. I think the only way I could make this happen would be to find the right used frequency converter for the right price...not likely to happen.

So now I can tell the wife that I've entertained all options to get her the stove she wants, but with the exception of finding a used frequency converter, it just isn't feasible.

So for anybody interested, there are 3 possible ways to power a european appliance at 50hz, using 60hz input. A VFD, a frequency converter, or an inverter system.

Anybody have a frequency converter for sale?
 
  #54  
Old 01-20-14, 06:42 PM
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A VFD is not huge or all that noisy, within reason. I think you are thinking of a rotary phase converter which is a spinning motor. The VFD's I have installed hang on the wall only have an axial fan(s) that helps keep it cool. I'm also betting that they could be remotely turned on as they are commonly installed in buildings that you computer automation. A frequency converter and a VFD are more or less the same thing. A frequency converter will convert the frequency to a single frequency (IE: 60Hz to 50Hz) While a variable frequency drive will put out a variable frequency, most cases 0 - 60Hz or 0 - 400Hz.

To be able to power the inverters with batteries, and have the batteries/inverters put out even 10,000, you would need a basement full of batteries and would for sure be cost prohibitive.

Anybody have a frequency converter for sale?
Just so happens I have a VFD that I plan to sell but it is 3 phase 480 volt. Check craigslist or eBay.
 
  #55  
Old 01-20-14, 07:21 PM
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A VFD is not huge or all that noisy, within reason. I think you are thinking of a rotary phase converter which is a spinning motor.
Cool. You right, I was thinking of a motor generator, which I assume is the same as a rotary phase converter. I'll check the price on a VFD. Thanks.
 
  #56  
Old 01-21-14, 05:48 PM
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Is there such thing as a stackable VFD? I can find lots of 5hp and less models that are relatively cheap, but the large ones are all big money. For instance you can buy a 4kW for $240, but I got quoted $11k for the 20kW model.
 
  #57  
Old 01-21-14, 05:52 PM
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As far as I know they are not stackable. They are usually sized to the load that is connected.
 
  #58  
Old 01-21-14, 06:57 PM
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Bummer. There's a million of them available that would be very reasonable (around $2k) if I had 3 phase input, but alas...
 
  #59  
Old 01-21-14, 07:38 PM
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Bummer. There's a million of them available that would be very reasonable (around $2k) if I had 3 phase input, but alas...
Why don't you just hire an engineer to design a system and spec the equipment you need to accomplish this?
 
  #60  
Old 01-21-14, 07:40 PM
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What's wrong with an American gas or electric range? For what you have in your budget you can get a real nice commercial one, or an antique one restored.
 
  #61  
Old 01-22-14, 12:46 PM
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What's wrong with an American gas or electric range?
Nothing, just can't find one that has all the features the wife wants. Induction top, 3 ovens (2 regular and one toaster oven), and with a traditional look. There is a similar gas range that we may end up settling on, but then we'll have to install a propane tank, get it filled, plus you have carbon monoxide and explosion hazards with that.

Why don't you just hire an engineer to design a system
Two reasons. Money. I have to pay the engineer, and he also isn't likely to deal shop when spec'ing equipment. And it's more fun to figure it out myself.
 
  #62  
Old 01-22-14, 03:46 PM
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then we'll have to install a propane tank, get it filled, plus...
My son - our middle son - was very happy to be able to abandon their LP-for-heating system when they moved to their new house. He told me that the cost per unit of heat for that system was several times the cost of natural gas. That's the main argument your situation presents against a traditional Aga cooker.

OTOH, I doubt it would be more expensive than the system you're envisioning.

[I] can't find one that has all the features the wife wants. Induction top, 3 ovens (2 regular and one toaster oven), and with a traditional look
Yes, the 240V 60Hz induction top ranges that are commonly available don't usually look old fashioned.

Originally Posted by Justin Smith
For what you have in your budget you can get a real nice commercial one, or an antique one restored.
Did you catch, in the link I posted earlier, that Elmira Stove Works does custom work? While they aren't showing an induction top on their web page at the moment, that might just be to a lag in updating the site. Regardless, they might be interested in doing one for the right project. Maybe even very interested.

I know from experience they can do something that will look at home in your older house. If I was you, I'd contact them before hanging this idea up.
 
  #63  
Old 01-22-14, 04:02 PM
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It is common for automobile companies to sell chassis and cab only to custom truck builders. I wonder if the maker of the stove you like would be willing to sell you the chassis and case so you could have a custom stove builder install the components you want?
 
  #64  
Old 01-22-14, 04:58 PM
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Not a lot of help...but if you live in an old house and want to have a period look with modern features...it can get expensive. For anything...not just a stove. I know a guy that went through the same thing back in VA. Everything from doors and windows to roof and siding to plumbing fixtures and such. He paid double or more. Even then he sometimes had to compromise if the price was just too high.
 
  #65  
Old 01-22-14, 06:54 PM
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I like these 48" ranges from Dacor.

http://www.dacor.com/Our-Products/Ra...uel-Range.aspx
 
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