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How power a European induction range in the US, 240V, 50hz. Need inverter expert

How power a European induction range in the US, 240V, 50hz. Need inverter expert

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  #1  
Old 01-16-14, 03:04 PM
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How power a European induction range in the US, 240V, 50hz. Need inverter expert

Let me start by saying I know many appliances aren't affected by the hertz difference, but motors and clocks can run at different speeds. This is an induction cooktop, and induction is all about frequency, and I have discussed it with the factory and they have confirmed that the change in hertz will be a problem and it won't work. Actually, that's why they don't sell this model in the US. They are apparently going to redesign the system to work on 60hz, but that will be years coming.

However, I can buy the range and have it shipped MUCH cheaper than our next choice, so I have $2-3k to play with to try and make it work. So I am exploring ways to generate my own compatible power for it.

Max power consumption is 16.2 kW (*gulp*). Fortunately, the unit also runs off 3 phase power, which according to the manual is 400V 50hz. I think it might not be unreasonable to run it off of a 3 phase inverter designed for a 20 hp motor. Most of the time only a fraction of this total power will be used.

So finally, to my questions:
1. Any other ideas out there on how to do it?
2. What type of 3 phase inverter would I need? I would want the stove be able to have constant power so the clock works, and basically it acts like any other appliance in the kitchen.
3. Would leaving the inverter on all the time be a problem? How long could I expect it to last?
 
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  #2  
Old 01-16-14, 03:20 PM
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Easiest would be a MG set. A 60 HZ motor running a 50hz generator. Might even be the cheapest for the power you need.
 
  #3  
Old 01-16-14, 04:09 PM
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Well, you might be able to get a variable speed drive to work but I sure wouldn't want to invest the money trying. The drive alone will likely cost you in excess of $1,000 and getting one that large that had a 240 volt single phase input (assuming this is for residential usage) and a 400 volt output might be a bit difficult. Then to add in the operating cost of the drive even when the range was not in use would be a significant hit on your electric bill. What is so great about this range that you would be willing to spend so much money on what is really an experiment?
 
  #4  
Old 01-16-14, 05:46 PM
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16.2kw is 22 hp. You can't run a 22 hp motor on 240V single phase, so I don't think I could get a motor generator big enough. Also, I can't have a motor running 24/7 to power my range. An inverter makes more sense.

The range costs $3000 and it's the one the wife wants. They don't make anything for the US market that is the same. Her next choice is about $8000, so that's what's special about the range!

I don't think it should be an 'experiment'. I'm sure there are thousands of homes in Europe that are off the grid, and they are using inverters to power their appliances. Also, it's a common problem for woodworkers and machine shops that don't have access to 3 phase power but need a 3 phase tool. Inverters can generate the 3 phase from single phase with pretty good efficiency, but I need to learn more about them.
 

Last edited by jrlogan1; 01-16-14 at 06:17 PM.
  #5  
Old 01-16-14, 07:42 PM
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I'm sure there are thousands of homes in Europe that are off the grid, and they are using inverters to power their appliances.
I would be very surprised to find that true, especially with such a large appliance.

Also, it's a common problem for woodworkers and machine shops that don't have access to 3 phase power but need a 3 phase tool.
I am quite aware of the use of phase converters and I have even built a few.
Inverters can generate the 3 phase from single phase with pretty good efficiency, but I need to learn more about them.
What is the electrical service to your home? Most common is 240/120 volts single phase and anything larger than 200 amperes is uncommon. 16 kw single phase is roughly 66 amperes at 240 volts. Adding in the phase conversion, frequency change and the voltage conversion will change that somewhat when the range is used to full capacity.

...it's the one the wife wants. ... so that's what's special about the range!
When I was married my wife wanted gold-plated faucets and genuine mink toilet seat cover. She also wanted a maid and cook. I'd like a Tesla Model X among many other things. We don't always get what we want.

I wish you well in your quest to make your wife happy, I have nothing further to offer.
 
  #6  
Old 01-16-14, 08:36 PM
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Check these guys out. They should have what you are asking for but will probably be lots more than the difference in price in the stoves. Also it is the size of a refrigerator. Solid State Frequency Converters, 50hz, 60hz, 400hz
 
  #7  
Old 01-16-14, 09:26 PM
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You are going to lose a whole lot in the transfer here, plus you are introducing more points of failure into the system, and it will be worth absolutely nothing to a potential buyer if you sell the house.. In fact a potential buyer and their home inspector will probably want you to remove it at your expense and install something normal. Your insurance company may have something to say about it too, especially if there is ever a fire - and if it is an electrical fire they will use that as reason number one why they won't pay your claim.

This isn't simply converting voltage or adding a phase here - because that would be easy. You need to generate totally separate power for this thing. As was mentioned you basically need to use a 22hp 3-phase 400v/50Hz motor as your generator - which means you need to power another 25hp motor with your household power in order to turn the generator. Do you realize how big a 25hp motor is? Let alone two of them? It's going to be physically huge (EASILY the size of a refrigerator), noisy, very inefficient, and if you don't have 3 phase power to your house, you aren't going to be able to run that motor anyway because it would blow your main breaker trying to start up.

Have you ever seen a house that is off the grid? They run hotplates and microwaves, and gas/propane appliances. You will never see an induction cooktop in an off-grid home.

Tell your wife to suck it up and pick out something else.
 

Last edited by taz420; 01-16-14 at 09:44 PM.
  #8  
Old 01-16-14, 09:43 PM
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Here is the model you would need. Note that it weighs 663 pounds and is almost five feet tall.

Visicomm Industries
 
  #9  
Old 01-16-14, 09:47 PM
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I seriously dread seeing the pricetag on that thing.
 
  #10  
Old 01-16-14, 10:45 PM
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How about a link to this stove. Maybe someone here in the restaurant business can suggest a commercial induction cooktop that is similar enough to be satisfactory.
 
  #11  
Old 01-17-14, 05:33 AM
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Lol. Those are big. Those would do the job though, Astuff. Thanks! I'll get a quote and see what they say. Might be out of the question. Hopefully it'll just be a $3000 refrigerator... ;-)

There's a lot of negative ppl on here. I'm just exploring options. Quit trying to make me give up. I'm a yes person, and if possible I'll make things happen. If I find that it's not feasible, then I'll move to plan B. Pessimists ought to just hush and let the rest of us find the solution, thank you.

As for an off the grid home, of course they wouldn't run a 16kW induction range! But they would run an entire house, with lights, blowers, microwave, computers, television, refrigerator, etc, the combined wattage of which would be significant. And they use stackable inverters that can go theoretically go up to any power requirement, given a large enough battery bank. Maybe I will just run it on 12V car batteries...
 
  #12  
Old 01-17-14, 05:53 AM
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Sure Ray. Here's the stove:
Buy RANGEMASTER Classic 110 Induction Range Cooker - Cream & Chrome | Free Delivery | Currys

We live in a home built in 1850, so the look is very important, and very much the issue. Also, this range has 2 regular ovens and a smaller toaster oven and 5 burners (4 not enough).

Here's plan B: French Ranges - Cluny Stove
Problems: It's $8000 and doesn't come in induction, only has 2 ovens, and also doesn't have as good reviews.
 
  #13  
Old 01-17-14, 06:59 AM
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I assume the ovens are resistance, right? So could you buy replacement inductive burners for a U.S. stove and swap out the burners and maybe controls?
 
  #14  
Old 01-17-14, 07:06 AM
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It's a good thought ray, but could be very difficult to do. Would have to see the unit and the replacement burners first hand. Yeah, I've thought about rewiring the ovens to exclude them from the 50hz power requirement, as being just resistors they won't care about the 60hz here. That leaves about 10kW peak power needed.

I'm afraid if I get into swapping out burners and controls I'll have a quirky problem on my hands.
 
  #15  
Old 01-17-14, 07:14 AM
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The inverter will require more the 60 amps if I am following this correctly. From what I have read residential circuits except subpanels are limited to 60 amps. Wonder if the inverter would be considered an exception to that rule? Example: demand water heaters that need more then 60 amps use two or three circuits.
 
  #16  
Old 01-17-14, 08:19 AM
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From what I have read residential circuits except subpanels are limited to 60 amps.
I am not familiar with that restriction, is it something relatively new? It used to be that 15 KW furnaces used a 90 or 100 amp breaker and a 20 KW furnace used a 125 amp breaker, but any more, the residential electric furnaces I have seen were all two or three circuit furnaces with combinations of 30 and 60 amp breakers, none bigger than 60 amps.

For what it's worth, I would abandon the idea of a European range and buy something like a high end Dacor. They have both gas and electric.

http://www.dacor.com/Our-Products/Ra...axonomyId=1121
 
  #17  
Old 01-17-14, 09:17 AM
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I am not familiar with that restriction, is it something relatively new?
And I'm not sure if it is true, just what i read somewhere.
 
  #18  
Old 01-17-14, 09:58 AM
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There's a lot of negative ppl on here. I'm just exploring options. Quit trying to make me give up. I'm a yes person, and if possible I'll make things happen. If I find that it's not feasible, then I'll move to plan B. Pessimists ought to just hush and let the rest of us find the solution, thank you.
Don't think of as them being "negative." Instead you might tend to think of it as being "realistic."

If you still are considering this, then the first thing to do is check with several electricians and figure out how much it will cost to wire up the frequency converter and if your service can handle this.

Talk to your local AHJ about what you want to do as well. You will need permits for this.
 
  #19  
Old 01-17-14, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Furd View Post
Here is the model you would need. Note that it weighs 663 pounds and is almost five feet tall.

Visicomm Industries
LOL.. Just for shiggles I called the company and asked about it..


It's $18,000.

So yeah. As Dan said, there's a huge difference between being negative and being real. All the positive thoughts in the world aren't going to make this a worthwhile venture.
 
  #20  
Old 01-17-14, 11:24 AM
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It's $18,000
Does that include shipping?
 
  #21  
Old 01-17-14, 11:28 AM
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I bet you guys want to know what that frequency converter cost... Well the answer is $12k. So that's out obviously. That's the quote for the 20kW model. I don't know where the 18K below came from.

I have one more idea. I need to produce 10kW max of 240v 50hz power. I can generate that with 4 stackable 2500W inverters, which are $240each on ebay. Then I need a battery bank. Let's say 4 12V, 100AH batteries. Then, of course, I need a hefty charging system to keep up with the drain. Benefit of this is I could actually run the stove when the power goes out.

If I put them in series for 48V, max power would be 200 amps through the batteries. Is that too much? If so, I could add more batteries, but that's getting pricey, and they will need be replaced periodically. Keep in mind I would probably never use all 5 burners on max at the same time.

It sounds to me that this setup could be done for less than $2k, and should work fine. No?

2500W 5000W Stackable Power Inverter DC 48V AC 240V | eBay
 
  #22  
Old 01-17-14, 11:46 AM
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It came from the guy at Visicomm that answered the phone half an hour ago.

Originally Posted by jrlogan1 View Post

It sounds to me that this setup could be done for less than $2k, and should work fine. No?

2500W 5000W Stackable Power Inverter DC 48V AC 240V | eBay
Absolutely not. First of all those are single phase/240v. The range requires 3 phase/400v. Outside of a solar inverter (which will be up there in price with the frequency converter) you can't get one in 3 phase.

Second, they do not produce a pure sine wave. It is a square wave, which would probably destroy the control systems.

Third, I doubt very much that there is an approved method for wiring up that mess.
 
  #23  
Old 01-17-14, 02:48 PM
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As stated in the title of the thread, the unit runs on 240V 50hz. The 3 phase is an alternate option.

I suppose I should ask the factory about running it on a modified sine wave inverter. Of course, I could also get a true sine wave inverter.

As for wiring it up, this is exactly how an off grid power system works. There are definitely approved methods of wiring it.
 
  #24  
Old 01-17-14, 03:51 PM
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Guys, read some of jrlogan1's other topics.
 
  #25  
Old 01-17-14, 04:08 PM
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Sure Ray. Here's the stove:
Buy RANGEMASTER Classic 110 Induction Range Cooker - Cream & Chrome | Free Delivery | Currys

We live in a home built in 1850, so the look is very important, and very much the issue. Also, this range has 2 regular ovens and a smaller toaster oven and 5 burners (4 not enough).

Here's plan B: French Ranges - Cluny Stove
Problems: It's $8000 and doesn't come in induction, only has 2 ovens, and also doesn't have as good reviews.
Lacanche seems to be all the rage these days, but I still partial to La Cornue. They seem to be better built and more versatile. Something like their Chateau 150 might suit you.

But if you and your wife really like the induction hobs you might prefer an Aga. If you have gas available, I'd install a classic Aga Cooker. Who needs induction when you have the range that's always on? And talk about a classic retro look. The good news is that it isn't just a look.

Heck, I might just install an Aga even if there was only electricity available to power it.

You can see Agas in several locations in the DC and tidewater areas. There's also Greensboro, NC, which might be closer to you.
 
  #26  
Old 01-17-14, 06:04 PM
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We live in a home built in 1850, so the look is very important, and very much the issue.
To be period correct, wouldn't a fireplace and a brick oven be more appropriate?
 
  #27  
Old 01-17-14, 07:37 PM
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Lol! Thanks CasualJoe! You're right, of course. And that would really save me some money, cuz we already have 8 fireplaces! Now if I can just convince the wife...
 
  #28  
Old 01-18-14, 06:34 AM
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There has got to be something made in North America that will give you the look you want. Maybe not with a conduction. Trying to get the European unit to run seems like an expensive task at this point.

I do have to agree that some of the criticism of this project was harsh and not constructive.
 
  #29  
Old 01-18-14, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jrlogan1 View Post
As stated in the title of the thread, the unit runs on 240V 50hz. The 3 phase is an alternate option.
Ok fine. Then it doesn't matter that you will "never have all the burners on at once" because you can't know that. You can't arbitrarily undersize the power supply by 40%.

I suppose I should ask the factory about running it on a modified sine wave inverter.
The factory will tell you that using an inverter with their product is contrary to their labeling and will void your warranty. They will offer you no help whatsoever.

Of course, I could also get a true sine wave inverter.
Of course, true sine inverters go for about $500 per kW.

As for wiring it up, this is exactly how an off grid power system works. There are definitely approved methods of wiring it.
No, there are no approved methods of stacking cheap Chinese plug-in inverters to run a high current permanent appliance. The only 'proper' way to do it is to use inverters that are designed to be hardwired - which excludes anything cheap.

I can't believe you are still stuck on this off-grid thing. Have you ever been in an off-grid house? I have. Off-grid houses use lots of LEDs and CFLs. Most of their devices are powered directly off their batteries because inverters are very inefficient and waste 15% of the input power just to run their own electronics. They usually have a small inverter (3-4kW) for loads that can not be adapted to battery power. They are usually owned by people who are very minimalist to begin with anyway. With everything on, an entire off-grid house doesn't draw as much power as this thing does.

I should also mention that most of the off-grid situations I've seen - both in person and online - are cobbled together in a way that would give most inspectors a heart attack. They are rarely done 'to code'. The exceptions are those who have spent many thousands of dollars on solar power systems with enough capacity to provide for the house, and enough extra capacity to recharge their batteries. This type of inverter system is the only correct way. And again, they won't be running an induction cooktop on it.
 

Last edited by taz420; 01-18-14 at 12:20 PM.
  #30  
Old 01-18-14, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by drooplug View Post
I do have to agree that some of the criticism of this project was harsh and not constructive.
It's not constructive to introduce the OP to the fact that he can not realistically do what he wants to do? It's too harsh to educate him on the fact that the way he wants to do it violates pretty much every code in the book?

Ok.
 
  #31  
Old 01-18-14, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jrlogan1
We live in a home built in 1850, so the look is very important, and very much the issue.
To be period correct, wouldn't a fireplace and a brick oven be more appropriate?
Actually, the fireplace and brick oven are a bit earlier. Even in rural Virginia, cast-iron cookstoves were available - even common - by 1850.

jr, have you considered installing a wood- or coal-burning range? Especially one that wouldn't require wood or coal?

Have you looked at Aga Cookers? I realize that the Aga was developed in the 1920s, but they still scream "old house" while cooking better than most modern appliances.
 
  #32  
Old 01-18-14, 12:24 PM
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It's not constructive to introduce the OP to the fact that he can not realistically do what he wants to do? It's too harsh to educate him on the fact that the way he wants to do it violates pretty much every code in the book?
No, but the question is one of tone and communication.

Accuracy is important, but not always easy to achieve. Understanding what another member is trying to achieve, and why, and connecting with that member's vision, is not only important, it is usually easier to achieve.
 
  #33  
Old 01-18-14, 12:40 PM
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If you're going to do something, do it right or don't do it at all.

I also thought it was against forum rules to give advice on how to do something that violates code.
 

Last edited by Nashkat1; 01-18-14 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Remove non-beneficial portions
  #34  
Old 01-18-14, 02:25 PM
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Nashkat1, appreciate your input. We have looked at the Aga's, and they look cool, but don't fit the style of cooking we do. We really like the look of the rangemaster, and the benefits of induction. However, rangemaster does make the equivalent range in a dual fuel gas cooktop for the US. It sells for $7200, so that is always an option. We aren't thrilled with gas, because we will have to install a propane tank, plus gas burners are harder to clean and tend to have trouble doing a simmer well. But absolutely, we can get the look we want with an appliance made for the US. Just not the perfect one.

If the Euro model wasn't so cheap I would never have considered trying to make it work. For some reason it only costs $3000. That's what got me to exploring options in the first place. But I find it curious that it is so cheap there compared to here, and that even includes a 20% VAT tax.

As for Taz, I don't know why he's so eager to have me fail or give up, but it's fine. I can ignore him quite easily. I am curious that he insists what I'm doing is not to code. I am not aware of any code restriction stating what you can or can't run on an inverter. If there is a code violation, can somebody please cite it for me?
 
  #35  
Old 01-18-14, 03:59 PM
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Lol, I am not 'eager to have you fail'. In fact it is quite the opposite. I am trying to make you understand that what you want to do WILL NOT WORK, and your quest to make it work on the cheap is DANGEROUS and NOT code-compliant.

By chance have you asked this company what the shipping will be? Because you can bet your butt that they aren't going to ship it to the US for free. Everything I see on their website points to them not shipping outside Great Britain at all. Not only that but it does not include VAT, because they are not allowed to collect VAT on purchases shipped outside of Europe.

Nothing says you can't run an inverter. However, what you are proposing is an example of a "Separately Derived System" as defined by NEC. As such, your SDS must be in compliance with NEC, no different than if it were utility power. This means that you CAN NOT use a stack of cheapo 'plug in' inverters. You must use hardwired inverters that are designed and listed for such use, and in order to stack them you must use a kit designed and listed for use with said inverters, and it must contain a listed OCPD. Having a bunch of 18/3 cords plugged into a stack of 2000W inverters, and wirenutted together onto a #6 cable hardly constitutes a code-compliant installation.

Do it right, or don't do it. Period.
 

Last edited by taz420; 01-18-14 at 04:15 PM.
  #36  
Old 01-18-14, 05:38 PM
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Perfect Taz. You've just confirmed that it can be done, all I need do is find the right inverter and wire it correctly. Thanks. That was the whole point of the thread in the first place: "Is this possible, how, and how much would it cost?"

It's obvious you want it to fail, because, for example, your comment on the cost of shipping. That's for me to worry about, and has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.
 
  #37  
Old 01-18-14, 06:14 PM
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The "right" inverter is going to cost you $10,000. Plus batteries and a way to charge them. End of story.
 
  #38  
Old 01-19-14, 08:12 AM
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As stated in the title of the thread, the unit runs on 240V 50hz. The 3 phase is an alternate option.
Fortunately, the unit also runs off 3 phase power, which according to the manual is 400V 50hz. I think it might not be unreasonable to run it off of a 3 phase inverter designed for a 20 hp motor.
You are giving some conflicting info, and your link of the stove does not list any specs. Lets go back to basics and see what we have:
What is the voltage required by the stove? (you have listed 400v and 240v)
What is the amps or watts? (you posted 16.2KW, is that correct?)
Is the stove single phase or three phase?

Anything can be done for the right amount of money, the question is does it make financial sense to reinvent the wheel?
 
  #39  
Old 01-19-14, 10:44 AM
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Exactly right Tolyn. It can definitely be done, I'm just exploring options.
I can see how it looks inconsistent, let me explain.
The stove can run on either single phase 240V or 3 phase 400V, both 50 hz.
The max is 16.2kW. However, the ovens are simply resistors and don't need 50hz power. I was figuring the 10kW excluding the ovens. I would wire the relays for the oven elements to my regular 240V power source.

And of course we should ban cars! They are the cause of drunk driving! Let's ban forks too, because they cause obesity!
 
  #40  
Old 01-19-14, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jrlogan1 View Post
I would wire the relays for the oven elements to my regular 240V power source.
Just.. Wow. As if Plan A with the stack of Chinese inverters wasn't dangerous enough, he wants to have two separate power supplies feeding the same appliance.
 
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