Hi,

I am planning on buying a commercial grill panini to use in my home. Yes, it took me 10 years to realize why my homemade paninis weren't nearly as good as the ones in the restaurant. I want a more powerful grill that will give me the same feel and taste .

The grill I want to buy is running on 220v and uses between 2100W and 2200W (depending on the model) of power, 60hz, single phase. It will be used in Montreal, Canada.

See a picture of the plug here: .

I have a 240v stove electrical outlet:


)

hooked up to a 40Amps breaker with very big wire gauge (I think it is 8 gauge wire). I am NOT using that stove outlet since I have a gaz stove (hooked to a 120v outlet).

I plan to install a 240v power outlet in my kitchen (with the 2 pins/poles horizontal, as per previous picture), running a cable from my stove outlet through the cabinets (the cable will run in the back of the bottom cabinets in the kitchen and will be visible if you look inside the cabinets). The distance between the stove outlet and the new power outlet will be around 19’. I will then install a metal electrical box inside the cabinet, with the 240v power outlet available on the outside of the cabinet (surface mount).

Here are my questions:

1- You can see in the included picture that I have 3 wire (plus ground) coming to my stove outlet (red, black, white and bare). Do I need a 3 wire cable to install my outlet, or I could do it with a 2-wire cable? I think I can do it with just the red, black and ground, but wanted to be sure.

2- According to the Canadian code, does the 240v cable running over 20' in the back of the kitchen cabinets (and visible inside the cabinet) have to have a different color, or it can be white? Can I hook the red and black connectors to red and white in my new cable? I could run a red tape along the cable to "warn" that it is not a 120v cable (?).

3- Since the cable won't be running more than 10 amps (given the 220v and 2200W of power), does this mean that I could use 14-2 white cable (the same one I used to install my standard 120v outlets) since those cables are safe up to 15 amps? (but the circuit is hooked to a 8 gauge wire that itself is connected to a 40 amps breaker). This would be nice as I have extra (free!) 14-2 white cable available.

4- If the answer to question #3 above is that I can't use the 14-2 wire, which gauge do I need to use for this run?

5- Will / should I change the breaker for this circuit (again, knowing I am NOT using that stove outlet)? Keep in mind that I will only use the grill panini once per month for about 5-10 minutes.. I am not concerned about it running while I am not there attending to it, but I don't want to have an "illegal" installation either.

6- To make the junction between my 20' cable and the stove outlet, I was planning on simply use the screw provided in the stove outlet and "wedge" each strand of the new cable inside the stove outlet and have the junction/connection inside that stove outlet, or I need to have wire connectors outside the stove outlet. Don't forget that the cables will have different gauge.


Thanks a lot for your help.

 

I will start by saying what I am about to tell you is based off US NEC. I don't know CEC, but they do have lots of things in common. Someone versed in CEC will have to give you a definitive answer.

However, what I CAN tell you is that any discrepancies will be purely nitpicky technicalities. While it 'might' not pass an inspection (and that would probably simply depend on the inspector's mood), there will be nothing dangerous about it.

Just to clarify this.. You CAN convert this circuit to a smaller amperage receptacle. You CAN NOT leave the stove receptacle attached to the circuit.

And also to clarify, the new receptacle will be coming THROUGH the cabinet wall to the outside, right?

For this application (as far as the NEC is concerned) you could use two wire, but you would have to mark the white wire red or black. CEC may or may not allow re-identifying the white - but there is nothing unsafe about doing it.

Here, no special identification is required on the cable as to the voltage it carries. Modern Romex cable uses the colored jacket to identify the gauge (14 is white, 12 is yellow, 10 is orange) to make inspections easier. It does not have anything to do with voltage. I have seen a red jacketed Romex that has red and black conductors in it, but I have not seen enough of it to think that it is an actual requirement

However, NEC does not allow Romex to be run exposed inside a cabinet like that. It would have to be enclosed in a chase, or you would have to use armored cable or individual conductors in a flexible conduit. Romex would also not be allowed to be surface mounted on a baseboard.

Yes, that has a 240v/15A plug, so provided you do not run it exposed, you can safely use your 14/2 (again, provided CEC allows use of the re-identified white as a hot).

14/2 or 12/2 armored cable or individual conductors in flexible conduit would be a better choice, but the Romex can be used as long as it is protected.

You MUST change the breaker. Circuits must always be fused for the smallest wire size on the circuit. So since you will be changing to a 14 gauge, you will need a double pole 15A breaker.

As I said above, you can not leave the stove receptacle in the circuit. You can join the wires with appropriately sized wire nuts (Marettes). Also, if you are intending to run the cable from that box, along the baseboard, to the cabinet, you will need to attach an extension ring with a cover to the box, and run the cable through a knockout. You can't just have it hanging out of the box.

 

Thanks taz420 for your information. I do note that your information is for US and will wait to see if any Canadian users chime in.

From what you are telling me, it seems that I would need to make the junction inside the current electrical box (seen on the pictures) with marettes, while disconnecting the stove connector from the circuit (but still leave it there, free from any wire).

My intention was to enlarge one of the slots you see on the metal plate on the picture (for the screws) and have the 14-2 wire exit the box from there, then run it along the base board for about 1 feet (that is behind my gas stove, so it won't be readily visible), then drill a hole in the side of the cabinet to run the wire in the back of the cabinets (going around the kitchen), and finally install an electrical box inside the kitchen cabinet, cutting through the cabinet and having the actual electrical outlet available from the OUTSIDE of the cabinet (surface mounted with a white decora plate).

From what you are telling me, I need to make the following adjustments to my plans:
1- I need a proper punch-through from the electrical box junction, probably using a 90 degrees turn to go left
2- I cannot have my wire run freely, or simply "stapled" to the back of the cabinet, I need to have them in a conduit


How exactly do I do that? I simply color with a red pen the white wire at both ends of the junction? I use red electric tape at each end? (assuming it is the same in Canada as in the US).

What exactly is an extension ring?

PS: I have ALREADY installed a garbage disposal, running a 14-2 cable from the dishwasher electricity along the dishwasher drain, and then installing a proper electrical box (power outlet and on/off switch) INSIDE the kitchen cabinet, and then plugging the garbage disposer in the outlet. I gather that I am not allowed to run such a cable inside the cabinets, and would also need to run it inside a conduit or change to an armored cable, right? See following pictures:

 

I don't think there's anything that says you can't use a non-connected ("dummy") device as a cover. So yeah, you can leave it on there as a cover.

Ok that you can't do. Cable - whether it be Romex or metal jacketed - even conduit, must be mechanically clamped to the box to keep it from being pulled out. There is also the problem that without a grommet, the metal slot will easily cut into the insulation. See explanation of extension ring below.

That's fine. That's what I thought you meant, I just wanted to make sure.

Correct. Either an extension ring, or a 'knockout cover': basically a blank cover with a knockout in it. Just be advised that you can NOT use a knockout cover in a situation where the cable coming out can be crushed by something pushed up against it. I'm sure this will not be the case because every range I've seen has room behind it at the bottom. It's just something to check for, because armored cable has a much bigger 'turning' radius than romex does - so it will stick out farther. The extension ring will be the better method here.

Again you don't specifically need conduit, the cable just needs to be protected from physical damage. Armored cable (the stuff with the spiral metal jacket) would be cheaper and easier to work with than conduit (and a lot easier than building covered chases inside the cabinets).

Exactly. Here, we usually simply color it black or red with a Sharpie, or use a piece of colored heat-shrink tubing as a 'sleeve'. Tape not so much, because it eventually dries out and starts coming off.

It's a box with no bottom that mounts to the original box's screws. It is normally used for increasing the depth or wire capacity of a box, but it can also be used for extending knockouts to the outside of a finished wall for transitioning to surface-mount wiring.



Correct. This is not allowed, because the Romex is in an area where it is exposed to physical damage. You could either install chases/false backs in the cabinets, or swap it to armored cable. You could also run it UNDER the cabinets through the kickplate spaces (if the cabinet design allows). One other way is to enclose the Romex into a listed surface-mount wiring system like Wiremold, but all-told, that may turn out to be more expensive and time-consuming than just re-running the armored cable.

There is nothing wrong with that receptacle being inside the cabinet because it is specifically for the garbage disposer. However you can not install a receptacle for a countertop appliance inside a cabinet (ie: where the door could possibly be closed on the cord) - which is why I asked you to clarify your intentions above .

 

You pretty well have all your answers.
- Use 14/2 BX plus an anti-short.
- Red heat shrink tubing on the white (or just use 14/3 BX and do not connect the white).
- Extension ring with an L16 and blank cover.
- Use armored cable straps to strap the BX to your wall and cabinets.
- If you are mounting the new receptacle ON the cabinet, I suggest a handy box and the specific handy box cover to go with it. It is for surface mount applications.
IBERVILLE | Utility Box 2-3/8 In. Wide 1-7/8 In. | Home Depot Canada
- Change the breaker to a 15A double pole.

OR

You can also look into wiremold.

 

I just want to add one thing. You may have to add tails on at the panel end as those large wires won't fit in a 15A breaker. I would also put a label on the wire specifying what it is for so that a larger breaker is not inadvertently put back in.

 

Don't quote me on this, I would have to go look it up, but I don't think we are allowed to do any joints in a service panel.
You should be able to fit the wire under the breaker screw though. I've seen #8 fit into a square d 20A breaker without issue.

 

Lol I had the wiremold thought too, that's what I edited as you were posting yours..

I believe when he says 'surface mount', he isn't using the term correctly. He is intending to cut a hole and use an old-work box, with the plate 'on the surface', which would be a 'recessed mount'.

A true 'surface mount' handy box (Canadian User, that's what your disposal receptacle is mounted in) would look incredibly stupid sticking out of the cabinet face.

 

That one I do know, because I've seen it come up before.. CEC says You ARE allowed to pigtail wires inside the panel AS LONG AS they land on a breaker (ie: to extend a short wire in order to reach a breaker, in order to change a wire gauge, or in order to prevent "double lugging" a breaker not so designed..

You are NOT allowed to use the panel as a junction box for wires that are simply "passing through" without landing on a breaker (this is allowed by NEC).

 

Do you have an article to cite? Because I don't think that's allowed under the NEC.

 

You are correct. I meant to say that the DECORA PLATE is surfaced mounted, but the BOX is recessed mounted. It WOULD indeed look quite ugly to have that box surface mounted .

What is the problem with double lugging (I just learned a new expression) the wires inside the oven receptacle? If I change the breaker to 15A, it only means that if someone plugs in an oven, it will trip the breaker, but there does not seem to be any danger to leave that outlet "live" with 240/15A. Why did you say it was forbidden?

Thanks all for your help, very useful stuff.

 

taz, you are correct with your statements on the CEC end.

CanadianUser, your range plug must be on a dedicated circuit. And it is dangerous and foolish to intentionally set up possible overload conditions.

 

312.8

This commonly comes up when circuits running to an existing panel must be moved to a subpanel for some reason (ie: adding a generator subpanel).

 

Mr Awesome,
May I ask a question on another's thread that both CanadianUser and I could benefit from?
Is there a 12g version of the 10-2 for 240 available here?
If not, will this do the trick for 12g?

HEAT SHRINK TUBING | Wraps, Ties & Covers | Ratings & Reviews | TheSource.ca

CDNuser, from little things in your post, the dialect leads me to believe we are in the same city, welcome to the forums. There are a bunch of really great and very helpful people here.

 

There may not 'appear' to be anything wrong, but basically it comes down to three things:

- The manufacturer's listed design of that receptacle only allows a single conductor to be connected to each terminal. It may work if you do it, but it is not how it was DESIGNED and APPROVED to work. Just like putting two wires on a single circuit breaker screw (that was not designed for it). Using or installing any device contrary to its listing voids the listing and violates code.

- Now while NEC does not specify restrictions as to the number of devices on a 240v circuit (they are treated the same as 120v - CEC may be different), you must observe the manufacturer's instructions, because they trump any Code in force. Most 240v appliances (whether plug-in or hardwire) have it in their manuals that they are only to be installed on a dedicated circuit. ANY electric range specifies that it be on a dedicated circuit.

- Basically if you were to leave the receptacle connected, it would be tempting for a future owner to simply change back to a 40A breaker without disconnecting the smaller wiring - which then becomes a fire hazard.

Now that I think about it and look at the photos again, it looks like that stove receptacle may have been added on after the walls were finished. Is there a basement/crawlspace where you can see the cable going back to the panel? If so, then a better option would be to simply run new cable all the way back to the panel. You can still run it through that box and proceed exactly the same way from there..

 

Kiton,

There is 12 AWG size in the red jacketed nmd90. I've never had to use it so I couldn't tell you price or if depot would carry it. Might have to go to an electrical distributor.
Yes the shrink tubing you linked is fine, and likely the cheaper method. I think the red jacketed cable has a higher temperature rating.