wiring new shop with 3 phase service

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Old 01-26-14, 08:53 AM
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wiring new shop with 3 phase service

hi all long time lurker great info on site here goes-- i have a new shop for wood working & electric co is installing 3 phase service [ they haven't worked out amp load yet ] probably will be 300 amp service . i need some help figuring out what boxes switches breakers etc. now for details
i have a 5 head moulder that needs to have 130 amps . the rest of shop can be supplied by service panel ,question is what would be the best configuration of switches, boxes ,breakers from main

thank you for any insights & info
 
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Old 01-26-14, 09:09 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "configuration" of switches, breakers, etc. Do you mean brand, what type, or other?

In MN the power company will provide the 3 phase transformer (or transformer set) but the contractor (or you) provides and installs the meter and CT cabinet. Here anything over 200 amps requires a CT cabinet for metering.

Last thing to note: If this is a commercial space most locations require the work to be done by a licensed electrical contractor.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 09:39 AM
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You started listing your loads. A complete list of equipment and their requirements would be needed.
A three phase service and over 200A puts you in a higher electric rate.

Based on your list you'll know better what your panel requirements will be.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 09:47 AM
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need to know how to get the 130 amp from service to moulder -- do i use transfer switch , disconnect switch , fuses , breaker , can i put a 150 amp breaker in 2 panels ,send one to moulder & use one for the rest of shop
 
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Old 01-26-14, 09:57 AM
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complete list of loads
130 amp-- moulder
10 amp --lights
30 amp ---dust collector
30 amp -- receptacles
 
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Old 01-26-14, 11:03 AM
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3-phase Service

Assuming your service is going to be 120/208 and not knowing if it will be served overhead or underground it looks like your major load is the moulding machine. Based on what you listed and not knowing the square footage of your shop I would say a 400 Amp service would be ok. I did not see anything for Air Conditioning,Heating or a possible water heater, which would increase what you need. As pointed out the work will need to be done by a licensed contractor. A service over 200 Amps requires the use of CT's for metering. This could be done with a stand alone CT can and remote meter socket or a free-standing switchboard, all depends on cost and utility co requirements. I would take the moulding machine circuit from the main service and not through a sub-panel. If the ampacity of your molding machine is 130 amps (not minimum circuit size) then you will need a circuit over 150 amps, your electrical contractor will determine that for you.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 11:35 AM
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There would be many ways to do your service. Do you have any electric in the building now or is this all brand new?
 
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Old 01-26-14, 12:09 PM
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yes this is all new service
 
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Old 01-26-14, 01:24 PM
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Ok, then here are some options:

#1) Install a single 400 amp service. This will include a CT cabinet, CTs, and a meter for the CTs. After the CT cabinet you will then install a single 400 amp, 120/208, 3 phase service. This will likely need to be a panelboard and I doubt they make a load center rated for 400 amps. After the panelboard you could then feed off the bus to a set of conductors into a gutter. Off those conductors you can tap off your moulder machine feed into a 200 amp disconnect. The disconnect will have fuses sized for the moulder and conductors feeding the machine, likely about 150 amps.

#2) Install CT cabinet as above but then install double lugs and feed one set into a 200 amp 3 phase panel, and the other set into a 200 amp fused disconnect. Disconnect will be for the moulder machine and the panel will be for all other loads.

3) Install a CT cabinet as above and have that feed into some 400 amp switchgear. Off of that switchgear you can then feed multiple loads, panels, disconnects, etc., and protect each with fuses.

4) Skip the CT cabinet and feed the power companies lines into a multi-meter bank on the outside of the building. You can have up 6 meters, 200 amps each, before you would need a main. Then you can feed panels and other disconnects off each meter.

None of the above is going to be very inexpensive, and will require working with an electrical supplier. IMO option #3 will give you the most flexibility. #1 & #2 would likely be the least expensive.
 
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Old 01-26-14, 08:44 PM
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complete list of loads
130 amp-- moulder
10 amp --lights
30 amp ---dust collector
30 amp -- receptacles
Is the 130 amps for the moulder the full load amps or is that the recommended overcurrent protection? What is the horsepower and voltage? I cannot imagine you having a motor big enough to have that high of FLA.

You said your service will probably be 300 amps (assuming a 120/208, 3-phase 4-wire service). IF that is the case, I'd install a 300A main breaker panelboard with a 150A subfeed breaker (assuming the moulder will run off this breaker - could also easily be a 125A subfeed breaker, just specify to your equipment supplier). The rest of the equipment is pretty well self explanatory. I'd suggest using a Siemens panelboard, most distributors will stock everything you need to make up this panelboard. You need to check with your power company for their service manual, you may or may not need a CT cabinet. Many areas will supply up to 400 amps (some areas 600 amps) through a self contained meter which means you'll have to buy a 400 amp meter socket, no CTs needed. If the POCO uses CTs for a 400 amp service, they typically will furnish the socket and meter loop wiring and you would supply the CT cabinet and do all installation. The POCO typically will terminate all meter loop wiring and seal both the CT cabinet and meter socket.

BTW, unless the 130 amps is FLA, you could probably get by with a 200 amp service.
 
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Old 01-27-14, 05:05 PM
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moulder is 130 full load amps --over current protection is 160 amps-- 230 volt

still waiting on power co to specify power they think is needed --
 
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Old 01-27-14, 06:31 PM
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moulder is 130 full load amps --over current protection is 160 amps-- 230 volt
What is the horsepower? I don't think you'll find a 160 amp fuse or breaker.
 
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Old 01-27-14, 07:19 PM
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Is the moulder single phase or 3 phase? Does that matter, or can it be wired either way?

Square D makes a 160A 3 pole breaker you can pick up for a little more that a grand.
 
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Old 01-27-14, 07:46 PM
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Square D makes a 160A 3 pole breaker you can pick up for a little more that a grand
Would renewable fuses be cheaper or is that too old school?
 
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Old 01-27-14, 08:17 PM
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Other than the odd one Nashkat posted, breakers do not come in 160 amp. Standard sizes are 150 amp and 175 amp.

This is one of the reasons I posted about the feeder with taps (#2) or switchgear (#3).
 
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Old 01-27-14, 08:45 PM
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moulder is 130 full load amps --over current protection is 160 amps-- 230 volt
If you go with a three phase service the voltage supplied will be 208vac. Make sure that isn't a problem for the unit.

A three phase 400A service will require a CT. In this neck of the woods.... I believe anything over 200A 3 phase will require a CT cabinet.
The POCO supplies the CT's and the meter.... that's it.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 08:04 AM
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moulder is 130 full load amps --over current protection is 160 amps-- 230 volt
What is the horsepower?
Still waiting on some information.
Food for thought:
Assuming the motor is 3-phase, 240 volt......50 HP motor has FLA of 130 amps and requires either a 200 amp thermal breaker or 200 amp dual element time delay fuse.
 
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Old 01-28-14, 10:46 AM
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moulder has 5 motors
3 @ 10 hp
1 @ 15 hp
1 @ 3 hp
all motors start seperatly-- moulder has its own distrubition box - fuse is prob in box i hope --need to check--- just need to put a disconnect to moulder

great info guys i wish the power co was as helpful as you all are,
 
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Old 01-28-14, 05:44 PM
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Considering your newest information, I think a 300 amp service would be a minimum, 400 amps would be better. Assuming a 120/208 volt 3-phase 4-wire service, you can order a 400 amp main breaker panelboard with a 175 amp subfeed breaker kit that bolts to the bus. Additional bolt-in breakers can usually be purchased from stock from the supply house for the rest of the circuits. I'd still look at Siemens to get what you need as economically as possible.
 
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Old 02-06-14, 06:30 PM
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thanks all great input --power co finally got back with me looks like im getting 400 amp service [ they haven't told me the price yet ] 3 phase stuff is expensive . any suggestions on where to get panels & breakers from
 
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Old 02-06-14, 08:38 PM
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I get mine at the local electric supply.
 
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Old 02-06-14, 09:16 PM
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3-Phase Service

thanks all great input --power co finally got back with me looks like im getting 400 amp service [ they haven't told me the price yet ]
What did the POCO tell you? Overhead or underground? The only 400amp self contained meter/panel I know of uses a 320amp K-base socket and is for residential only and not 3-phase. I think you will end up with as CT can, 13-jaw remote meter socket and a main disconnect or gutter with multiple disconnects (6-max) depending on your design. If your underground then unless the POCO allows you to land in the CT Can you will have to add a Underground Pull Can.
If you provide what the POCO requires we could be more specific

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Old 02-07-14, 06:21 AM
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any suggestions on where to get panels & breakers from
You first need to check with your POCO for their service rules and see what they require before you start buying equipment. Some POCOs will require CTs on any 3-phase service over 200 amps and some will alow a self contained meter and socket for higher amperages. Here, we used to be able to use a self contained meter and socket up to 400 and 600 amp 3-phase 4-wire services, but that has changed. 400 and 600 amp meters are bolt-in meters and the trend across the nation has been to get away from bolt-in meters for the safety of their metering department personnel. Today for a 400 amp service we have to use either a 320 amp socket (320A socket is weak link in a 400 amp service) OR use CTs to get the full use of the 400 amps. The 320 amp sockets use a plug-in meter and not a bolt-in.
 
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Old 02-15-14, 09:03 PM
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poco will be installing 400 amp service aka 320 amp 120/240 high leg delta i wont need a ct cab per poco what i would like to do is split service to 1 200 amp panel & 1 200 fused disconnect to moulder . i called poco to see if i could lug at meter socket --they haven't got back to me yet. the reason for this set up is the price of the 400 amp panel with main & 175 amp branch breaker is crazy high.if i cant lug at meter what other options do i have ,can i lug at a 400 amp disconnect or would i have to install some sort of gutter
 
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Old 02-16-14, 06:17 AM
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if i cant lug at meter what other options do i have ,can i lug at a 400 amp disconnect or would i have to install some sort of gutter
Not sure I understand exactly what you mean by lugging at the meter, but I assume you mean installing double barrell lugs. You'll have to check and see what size lugs are available from the manufacturer. Is this considered a commercial or residential service, it makes a difference. Commercial usually requires a lever bypass and in most areas, but a residential doesn't need more than a horn bypass. It also will affect wire sizes at the service. There is also a 320 socket available, as I recall, with two 200 amp breakers built into it. You might look and see if one like that would be approved. Also as I recall, the maximum wire size that can be installed in the line side lug is 600 MCM. That eliminates the possibility of using Type XHHW aluminum conductors up the riser to the weather head because you would need 750 MCM aluminum conductors, assuming this is a commercial service. Copper conductors can be 500 MCM also assuming a commercial service. My opinion is that a 3 phase service would be a commercial service.
 
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