Not sure if this is legal or a safe hookup.


  #1  
Old 01-26-14, 01:17 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Not sure if this is legal or a safe hookup.

Alright, I just bought a house that has a walk-in tub (old person tub) and I noticed some conduit running from my main house feed. I opened the box to see a 12 gauge wire running directly out of the 200A breaker into the side of my house. I opened the panel to the tub and it goes into a GFI outlet to power the two pumps. Shouldn't there be a sub panel with a breaker? Or be ran from the garage panel with a breaker? Thanks!
 
Attached Images   
  #2  
Old 01-26-14, 01:42 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Jersey
Posts: 65,090
Received 3,980 Upvotes on 3,572 Posts
Welcome to the forums.

Good catch

That is completely wrong. You cannot run any circuits thru that box and you absolutely can't tap off of it like that. The #12 circuit needs to be removed from that panel and reconnected at your main or sub panel. Take care of that ASAP..... it is not safe.

Name:  image.jpg
Views: 336
Size:  31.2 KB
 
  #3  
Old 01-26-14, 01:49 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 29,711
Upvotes: 0
Received 15 Upvotes on 13 Posts
It needs to be removed immediately. It is a hazard because the branch circuit wire is not effectively protected and could cause a fire. It is a hazard because you have two wires under a lug designed for a single wire.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 01-26-14 at 03:31 PM.
  #4  
Old 01-26-14, 02:11 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Alright, my assumptions are correct. I actually have a electrician coming out for another job this week (installing a shallow well pump). Just curious, I know they are going to run a sub panel for the pump. What should I look for when he go to tie into my current service? Will they try to run from my panel in the garage or from the box pictured? I don't want to be ignorant like the last homeowners were. Thanks so much for the advice.
 
  #5  
Old 01-26-14, 02:24 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 29,711
Upvotes: 0
Received 15 Upvotes on 13 Posts
Will they try to run from my panel in the garage or from the box pictured?
All branch circuits including subpanels must be protected by a breaker. The box pictured does not have spaces for breakers.
 
  #6  
Old 01-26-14, 02:40 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Out of curiosity did you get a home inspection before you signed? Because if the inspector didn't catch that he should be brought up on charges.

The whole "#12 on a 200A breaker" thing aside (just.. Wow..).. Romex is not allowed to be run inside a conduit like that, NOR is it allowed to be installed anywhere outside the structure. AND to boot, it looks like it's copper on aluminum. A true Red Flag Trifecta..

Nothing is allowed to be tapped in there. He will have to move that clown circuit inside, as well as run your well pump inside.

Is your breaker box on the inside wall right behind that? I see other grounds coming out of the back nipple, so he may be able to just run those circuits right through without having to re-arrange.

Can we have a picture of the upper right corner of that box? I'm curious to know what else is in there because I see a wire nutted white and extra grounds, but no other blacks...


As far as making it safe until the electrician gets there, turn that main breaker off, and snip the black wire as close to the terminal as you can get without nicking the large wire.
 
  #7  
Old 01-26-14, 02:52 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 14,338
Received 878 Upvotes on 741 Posts
Because if the inspector didn't catch that he should be brought up on charges.
Exactly what charge would that be? Not being observant? Home inspectors liability is only their fee which is about $400 in most cases.
 
  #8  
Old 01-26-14, 02:52 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Unfortunately yes there was a home inspection, I will be filing a complaint with then tomorrow. I looked over the contract, they basically don't take responsibility for anything. I'm also going to call the previous homeowner and see who installed this to try and take some legal action there, not looking for money, just wired correctly.

I'm not currently home but I will absolutely upload a picture in the morning.

The breaker box is in the garage, probably a 100ft run through the attic to get there.
 
  #9  
Old 01-26-14, 03:04 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Tolyn Ironhand
Exactly what charge would that be? Not being observant? Home inspectors liability is only their fee which is about $400 in most cases.
Yeah I know, I was being facetious. Unfortunately stupidity is not an actual crime or our lives would be much easier..
 
  #10  
Old 01-26-14, 03:20 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gibso5cc
Unfortunately yes there was a home inspection, I will be filing a complaint with then tomorrow. I looked over the contract, they basically don't take responsibility for anything.
While you're doing that, there's a number to call about halfway down to file a complaint against an inspector with the licensing board. It seems FL has some pretty strict hoops you have to jump through to be an inspector so you might be able to get his license yanked for such a glaring omission. http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr.../home_faqs.pdf

Regardless of what he disclaims in his contract, it may be worth threatening him with action anyway (tell him you'll be contacting your attorney and the licensing board). You may be able to scare him into paying for it, because it's not like he missed mold inside the walls or a subfloor rotted by dog pee - because that's stuff you can't reasonably expect him to find. However, he IS expected to take the covers off the electrical panels to look at the condition of the wiring. That is something that the previous owners would have been obligated to fix at their expense prior to sale, because it is not just a technical violation, it is dangerous. You have a legit cause of action.


I'm also going to call the previous homeowner and see who installed this to try and take some legal action there, not looking for money, just wired correctly.
If they still have the original contract/receipt, that would help you immensely.

[/QUOTE]
 
  #11  
Old 01-26-14, 03:23 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 14,338
Received 878 Upvotes on 741 Posts
Yeah I know, I was being facetious.
Will check my sarcastic meter. I think it might be off.
 
  #12  
Old 01-26-14, 03:40 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 29,711
Upvotes: 0
Received 15 Upvotes on 13 Posts
Gibso wrote:
house that has a walk-in tub (old person tub)
And therein probably is the answer to how it happened. The company selling the tub probably included installation with the installing employees' only requirements being a Class C drivers license and meet their quota of installs for the day or be fired.
 
  #13  
Old 01-27-14, 01:49 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Alright, I did take out the bad wiring. I tried getting ahold of the previous owners but was unsuccessful. I'll keep trying tho. As for the pictures I took some more photos of the upper right hand corner as asked.

Thanks so much for the link on filing a complaint with the state of florida, I will do that tonight as well. I haven't called the Inspection company (AmeriPro), I really don't even know what to say that will get my anywhere with a large company like that. Any hints? Thanks again.
 
Attached Images    
  #14  
Old 01-27-14, 01:53 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 29,711
Upvotes: 0
Received 15 Upvotes on 13 Posts
The white wire needs to be removed also.

Corrected image.

Name:  photo (26).jpg
Views: 302
Size:  24.9 KB

.
 
  #15  
Old 01-27-14, 02:18 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 14,338
Received 878 Upvotes on 741 Posts
I see the PVC connector also has no locknut. Minor details.

You could add an outdoor panel next to this one and tap off the conductors using a proper tap method. The taps will then feed into the panel and then run the branch 20 amp circuit from the new panel.

Example of tap: IDEAL INDUSTRIES, INC. - Buchanan B-TAP® Insulation Piercing Tap Connectors
 
  #16  
Old 01-27-14, 02:48 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
sorry if I confused anyone, I removed the black/white/and copper wires.

Now back to tapping off of this panel, I didn't think I could do that but I'm curious now. I'm still going to hook up the tub through the main panel. But I do want to hook up a shallow well pump this spring right outside of this panel. About 10 feet to the right, that would be a lot cheaper than bringing a 150 feet of 10/2 from the garage!
 
  #17  
Old 01-27-14, 03:33 PM
A
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 236
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I haven't called the Inspection company (AmeriPro), I really don't even know what to say that will get my anywhere with a large company like that. Any hints? Thanks again.
Not trying to change this into a home inspection thing (wiring issue aside for the quick moment though).... I just wanted to say don't waste your time, focus your attention on making repairs.

Even if you did have an issue because of this oversight, you signed off saying the inspection company is only liable for the price of the inspection and nothing more... they teach that to those hacks during the first hour of their 3 hour education. The entire industry and those that work in it are a total joke.

Now back to your wiring issues, I wish you the best in getting that stuff sorted out....
 
  #18  
Old 01-27-14, 06:41 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Uhhhhh yeah except the OP is in Florida, where they appear to take inspections seriously. Inspectors are required to take 120 hours of course study and pass an exam to get licensed, and take a 14 hour refresher/update course each year in order to renew their license.

Fine print, disclaimers, and releases don't mean crap in today's society.
 
  #19  
Old 01-27-14, 06:45 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I am now curious about those extra ground wires coming in from the back nipple. The one from the main cable is the aluminum one.. But what are the extra copper ones associated with?
 
  #20  
Old 01-27-14, 08:04 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
I'm not really sure what those extra grounds are for, I'd have to craw up into the attic to see where the lead.

I did get ahold of the inspection company today, they were actually quite helpful. I submitted some pictures and explained the situation and they are meeting in the morning to decide how to resolve the situation. The person I talked with did agree that it shouldn't have been missed, it was very evident by just taking off the panel that something was wrong. Also found out that inspector is no longer with them (they didn't give a reason, but one can assume why now).

Now for those extra ground wires....
 
  #21  
Old 01-27-14, 08:07 PM
G
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 7
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Looks like 3 extra ground wires in the picture, could it possibly be from the electric meter with is off to the right side in the picture?
 
  #22  
Old 01-27-14, 09:32 PM
T
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 295
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
The fact that this is a larger firm rather than one guy in a truck works in your favor. The inspector was representing their company, so they will be much more willing to strike a deal with you in the interest of getting bad press and a possible investigation into their license and hiring practices.

The meter pan itself is rarely grounded (most power companies prohibit it, unless it is a combination meter/disconnect), and when it is, it goes directly down to a ground electrode. It would never go into the separate service disconnect.

I'm just wondering how the wires are run inside the house between there and the breaker box.. If it's in conduit all the way from there to the breaker box, then it's wrong because you can't run a service entrance cable inside conduit. If it's just a PVC end fitting that the cable goes through as a bushing, then it's wrong because the cable is not clamped in any way - and even if there is a clamp, you can't run bare ground wires through walls. So it's just an odd thing to see three bare grounds coming through the same knockout as a service entrance cable.
 
  #23  
Old 01-28-14, 04:28 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 13,979
Received 194 Upvotes on 170 Posts
The NEC does not prohibit either a service cable in a conduit sleeve nor does it prohibit bare grounds being in a wall.
 
  #24  
Old 01-28-14, 06:05 AM
A
Member
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 236
Upvotes: 0
Received 0 Upvotes on 0 Posts
Uhhhhh yeah except the OP is in Florida, where they appear to take inspections seriously. Inspectors are required to take 120 hours of course study and pass an exam to get licensed, and take a 14 hour refresher/update course each year in order to renew their license.

Fine print, disclaimers, and releases don't mean crap in today's society.

I did get ahold of the inspection company today, they were actually quite helpful. I submitted some pictures and explained the situation and they are meeting in the morning to decide how to resolve the situation.
Yes, they will get together and decide if they will release their greedy, sticky fingers from the 300 bucks or whatever you paid for the inspection and nothing more. Regardless if "Fine print, disclaimers, and releases don't mean crap in today's society"......... Even if they were liable for something more, what exactly is that in this case?

Chalk it up to experience and next time bring in a licensed electrician, plumber or other tradesman for your inspections, not some hack with his '120 hour course' under his belt.

Im glad to read your taking care of the real issue at hand though, the wiring.
 
 

Thread Tools
Search this Thread
 
Ask a Question
Question Title:
Description:
Your question will be posted in: