3 Phase help needed

Reply

  #1  
Old 02-09-14, 09:38 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
3 Phase help needed

Hello,

I am new to this community and glad I have found it...

I have a 3 phase electrical question. I have a small cnc machine shop in my garage. I use a digital phase converter to power my machines, Phase Perfect 240V DCP20 indoor. I have not had any issues or noticed issues with power until now.

I just sold an older piece of equipment and replaced it with something newer, still old but newer. This machine has a 230volt orange sticker on the side where the power goes into the machine. Anyway I am getting an alarm message on this CNC mill I was not getting on the other machines I have. It is an over voltage alarm. After investigating I have found that legs 1 and 2 are outputting 120-130 volts. (I am using an analog volt meter and the lines are small) Now with leg 3 the voltage is about 220-230 volts. I believe this is why I am getting the over voltage alarm. After a little reading about delta and wye 3 phase power I seem to have delta 3 phase and need wye 3 phase where all three legs are 120V.

What do I need to do to get the wild 3rd leg down to 120V? Can I use a transformer to reduce the 1 wild leg or do I need to run all 3 legs through a transformer? Any tricks of the trade that can help would be great!

I know enough about electricity to be dangerous and ruin the electronics. If there are website with more information that I can be pointed to, please point.

I was not expecting this alarm delaying the deployment of this cnc machine. I am starting to run behind on production. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Guys!
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 02-09-14, 09:48 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,354
I am suspecting you have a 120/208 voltage in your panel. Can you see any labels to confirm this on the panel or electric meter?
 
  #3  
Old 02-09-14, 10:15 AM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
Found the following at the Phase Perfect site.

The three-phase output is delta configured. While the phase-to-phase voltages are equal, the phase-to-ground voltages are not equal. Phase-to-ground voltage for both T1 and T2 should be approximately 120V. Phase-to-ground for T3 should be approximately 208V. For three-phase loads that are designed for delta connection, the load derives its voltage phase-to-phase, so the phase-to-ground voltage should not affect the operation of the equipment.
If the connected load has a neutral connection and requires wye configured power, the output of the phase converter must be passed through a delta-to-wye isolation transformer before connection to the load.
 
  #4  
Old 02-09-14, 10:17 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,212
After investigating I have found that legs 1 and 2 are outputting 120-130 volts.
If this is a 3-phase 230 volt machine, the machine doesn't care what phase to ground voltage is, just phase to phase. See what you get when you measure A to B, B to C and A to C. They all should be reasonably close to 240 volts.
 
  #5  
Old 02-09-14, 10:58 AM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
JNZ..... what do the tech specs for the new equipment say ?
 
  #6  
Old 02-09-14, 03:51 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Hey Guys. Thanks for the help. Here are a couple pictures of the labels on the equipment. One is for the Haas machine and the other is from the Phase Perfect converter
 
Attached Images   
  #7  
Old 02-09-14, 03:55 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here are some other pictures of the electrical set up. I installed the sub panel.

Also there are pictures of the the meter readings. The white wire is the 220-230 volt.
 
Attached Images      
  #8  
Old 02-09-14, 05:34 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,212
The white wire is the 220-230 volt.
Measured to what? Phase to phase voltage is what's important with a 3-phase machine. The machine doesn't care what phase to ground voltage is.

See what you get when you measure A to B, B to C and A to C. They all should be reasonably close to 240 volts.
Have you done this yet? What are the readings?
 
  #9  
Old 02-09-14, 06:06 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 11,980
The white wire is the 220-230 volt.
It doesn't work like that. Voltage is the difference of potential between two points. So the voltage would be between the white wire and something else. See Joe's post for testing procedures.
 
  #10  
Old 02-09-14, 06:23 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
OHHH.... Phase to Phase! I think I know what you guys are asking now. Those readings are phase to ground readings.

I will post those reading soon.

Thanks for the help!
 
  #11  
Old 02-09-14, 06:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here are the phase to phase readings. They look like the read 250V with my volt meter.

The machine tag says 208V / 230V. With all 3 phase to phase readings at 250V could this be the reason for the over voltage alarm?

Should one of the readings be 208V?

Thanks for the help!!
 
Attached Images    
  #12  
Old 02-09-14, 07:12 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
Ok..... so all your phases are fairly close, as they should be, but the voltage is high. 250+vac may be on the high side for that Haas. Usually you are allowed a +/- 10% variation in voltage but since that unit is spec'ed at 208/230VAC you may be pushing it's limit.
 
  #13  
Old 02-09-14, 07:28 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
So to get the voltage down to what I need to do to get my machine to stop alarming out with the over voltage? Transformer??
 
  #14  
Old 02-09-14, 07:36 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
Does the DPC-20 have multi voltage taps inside for hookup ?
 
  #15  
Old 02-09-14, 08:02 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here is picture of the stuff inside of the converter
 
Attached Images  
  #16  
Old 02-09-14, 08:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here are a couple more pictures
 
Attached Images   
  #17  
Old 02-09-14, 08:59 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
The pictures are good. It looks like whatever voltage that unit is connected to is what appears on its outputs. Therefore you can't change the output voltage on that inverter.

My best recommendation is to contact Haas and see if they can shed any light on the problem.
 
  #18  
Old 02-09-14, 09:15 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Thank you. I will be calling them in the morning.

I appreciate all of the help I received from everyone. I do understand a little more than when I started this thread.

High 5

-Tom
 
  #19  
Old 02-10-14, 06:09 AM
Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 2,850
Maybe your meter is inacurate.

What oltage doyou measure between the prong holes of one of the regular 120 volt receptacles?

Also try measuring the voltage of a "regular" battery and a 9 volt battery to see if there is a "systematic" high reading of everything.
 
  #20  
Old 02-10-14, 06:25 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,212
Thank you. I will be calling them in the morning.
I'd also consider calling Phase Perfect about whether there is regulation of output voltage built into the converter and/or how to lower the output voltage. Be prepared by having the exact input voltage, they may ask for it.
 
  #21  
Old 02-10-14, 02:16 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
I called both Haas and Phase Perfect. Haas could not help but say reduce your voltage. Phase perfect said it is the line in power coming in at 125V+ for both legs creating the 250V. I ordered a buck boost transformer to reduce the in coming voltage to the phase converter. Then converter will output a lower voltage the machine will except.

I will update after I install the buck boost.

Thanks again guys!
 
  #22  
Old 02-10-14, 04:22 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,354
The conductor colors used in the panel are incorrect. White cannot be used as a ungrounded or hot conductor,especially in a conduit system. Neither should the white be identified as a grounding conductor.

If you have a high leg system the wild leg is supposed to the orange. Also the colors used non this system should not be the same as any other system on the premises.
 
  #23  
Old 02-15-14, 07:29 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Hello and good morning,

I really have appreciated the help so far with getting my project completed.

Someone asked what the line voltage is in a standard 110 wall outlet. I checked and it looks like it is about 130V. This is the same I am getting is several places.

When I called Phase Perfect about decreasing the output voltage I was informed about this buck-boost transformer to reduce the voltage going into the phase converter. The converter will not reduce the voltage only will reproduce what is going in so I need to reduce the 130V to 120V. This is where the buck -boost comes in.

What I purchased is a buck-boost transformer, 85-M045 from Dongan. From looking at it it seems simple enough but after looking at the installation diagram I am not sure what I am looking at. This thing was to expensive to smoke it so I need more help.

Here are a couple pictures of the transformer. There are 4 wires labeled X1, X2 X3 and X4. The 2 wires grouped together on the left are X1 and X2. The 2 on the right are X3 and X4. Like wise they are grouped together the same way going into the hard plastic or resin seal. There are 4 more small wires that are grouped together but do not have markings on them. I would think they are for the low volatag side of the is transformer, 12 /24. I will attack another picture in a few.
 
Attached Images   
  #24  
Old 02-15-14, 07:40 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here are the pictures showing all of the wires that the other pictures didn't show.

Looks like I need help with connecting this unit to reduce my voltage from 130 to 120 volts.

Any input will be appreciated.
 
Attached Images   
  #25  
Old 02-15-14, 07:44 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Here are the manufactures diagrams for the connection this unit up.

It appears the PDFs are not uploading... Files are larger than 50kb.

Here are links to the website. Page 53 look for model 85-M045
http://www.dongan.com/Portals/0/Cata...t%20Tables.pdf

Here are the connection diagrams. The first part of these connection diagrams are for single phase.
http://www.dongan.com/Portals/0/Draw...20Diagrams.pdf

Here are the single phase diagrams
http://dongan.com.dnnmax.com/Portals...onnections.pdf
 

Last edited by teamjnz; 02-15-14 at 08:12 AM.
  #26  
Old 02-15-14, 09:10 AM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,212
Someone asked what the line voltage is in a standard 110 wall outlet. I checked and it looks like it is about 130V. This is the same I am getting is several places.
Before I would install a buck/boost transformer I'd call the power company and ask them why their voltage is so high. I have never seen single phase residential voltage as high as yours anywhere. What is the single phase voltage leg to leg (across the two hot legs) at your main panel?
 
  #27  
Old 02-15-14, 09:30 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Hey Casual Joe. Looks like it is 250V.
I do not think the regular guy at the power company will know why. I can only guess they do this for power spikes to key the voltage up.
 
  #28  
Old 02-15-14, 10:40 AM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 11,980
The voltage in neighborhoods will vary. One building we do a lot work in has voltage about the same as the OP. It has never been an issue. However one building fairly close by has a Kodak printing press that require 208 volts. We had to install two buck boosts for their three phase power to the press.

Looks like I need help with connecting this unit to reduce my voltage from 130 to 120 volts.
You need to buck the 250 volts down lower so the output of the three phase will also be lower. Follow the diagram 18 in TeamJNZ's last link.
 
  #29  
Old 02-15-14, 11:55 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Thanks for the reply IronHand.

I did notice the small wires do have markings on them. H1, H2, H3 and H4.
Just to clarify what I am see I am connecting H1, H3 and one of the hot power leads. Connecting H2, H4 and the other hot power lead.

What lines do I use to go from the the transformer to the converter? Do I use the larger X wires?

Thanks
 
  #30  
Old 02-15-14, 01:31 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 11,980
Since you voltage is too high I will assume you want to buck the voltage down 24 volts.

Connect the line to H1 and the other to H4
Connect H2 and H3 together.
Connect the load to X4 and X1
Connect x2 and X3 together.

After checking the line wires, and the interconnect wires, I would verify the connections and check the voltage with a meter between X4 and X1 before making the final connections going to the phase converter.

NOTE: Connections for bucking voltage is not correct, see below. This will only output 24 volts
 

Last edited by Tolyn Ironhand; 02-16-14 at 08:43 AM.
  #31  
Old 02-15-14, 04:36 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
IronHand,
Yes I want to buck down 24V. Sorry but I am doing this for clarification

Connect the line to H1 and the other to H4 (Line to H1 and the other line to H4?)
Connect H2 and H3 together. (got it)
Connect the load to X4 and X1 (load to X4 and the other load to X1?)
Connect x2 and X3 together. (got it)

thanks man!
 
  #32  
Old 02-15-14, 04:59 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
Am I missing something ...... that transformer is from 120/240v to 12/24v.
How is that going to help here ?
 
  #33  
Old 02-15-14, 05:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Hello PJmax

Yes this is what I was sold, single phase buck boost transformer. To reduce the line voltage going into the phase converter. If I understand correctly is will reduce 12 or 24 volts.
 
  #34  
Old 02-15-14, 05:15 PM
PJmax's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: NJ - USA
Posts: 43,446
Before you connect it..... make sure we are all in agreement. I was under the impression that was a buck transformer and technically it is but it doesn't show dropping 12 or 24volts..... it shows outputting 12 - 24 v.

I'm still reading the charts.
 
  #35  
Old 02-15-14, 05:20 PM
CasualJoe's Avatar
Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 9,212
Hey Casual Joe. Looks like it is 250V.
I do not think the regular guy at the power company will know why. I can only guess they do this for power spikes to key the voltage up.
That would make your single phase voltage something like 130/250, definitely not normal. I'd still give the power company a call about it. Those voltages will destroy appliances.
 
  #36  
Old 02-16-14, 08:33 AM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 11,980
I believe that PJmax is correct. That wiring is not correct that I posted to buck voltage down. (thus the reason I said to test it before connecting it to the converter ) See diagram I posted below. This is the same diagram as SP-15 that TeamJNZ posted. You can see that the windings are wired in series and will buck the voltage down.

Name:  Buckboost.png
Views: 1137
Size:  7.8 KB

New connections:
Connect LINE A and LOAD A to H1
Connect H2 and H3 together
Connect H4, X4 and LINE B together
Connect X2 and X3 together
Connect LOAD B to X1

Again, Check your voltage output before connecting to converter!
 
  #37  
Old 02-16-14, 08:41 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
I will attempt this later today since I will be gone most of the day.

I really appreciate the help!
Thanks
 
  #38  
Old 02-18-14, 02:59 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 19
Thanks to all who was helping me with this project. I was finally able to buck the voltage down correctly. I was able to speak to an electrician over the phone and to get help and an explanation of the diagrams. Thanks Mitch!!! Turns out the buck-boost sizing table references which diagram to use to buck down the voltage. Using the sizing table find the model number I purchased, 85-M045. Now look in the buck decrease voltage column on the far right, line 240, load 264. This shows a 24 volt decrease. Follow this column to the bottom of the page. It references which diagram to use and what page it is on.

http://dongan.com/Portals/0/Catalogs...ng%20Table.pdf

Mitch educated me on what I was looking at and it made sense. Now I have line to line 223 volts going into the phase converter. My Haas CNC machine like the voltage and comes up on line.
Time to start making parts!!!

I appreciate all of the input I received from you guys. Thanks you very much for your time.
Tom
 
Attached Images  
  #39  
Old 02-18-14, 03:34 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 32,643
Thanks for letting us know the outcome.
 

Last edited by ray2047; 02-18-14 at 06:42 PM.
  #40  
Old 02-18-14, 06:40 PM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,354
The blue equipment is in the workspace for the panel.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes
'