Electrical to Shed

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  #1  
Old 03-06-14, 03:41 PM
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Electrical to Shed

Hello all,
I know this has been asked several times on this forum and I hate to do this again but I have a situation that I need clarification on.

* I want to run electrical to my shed.
* The shed is about 100 feet away from my trailer.
* I can bury line.
* I want to run enough electrical to cover the following:
1 ea Freezer
1 ea 220 Volt Single Phase Welder
2 ea Fluorescent lights
2 ea 6 outlet strip for misc hand tools, connected to these strips will be:
1 ea Miter Saw
1 ea Bench Grinder
1 ea stereo
1 ea Lamp
1 ea Belt Sander
1 ea Compressor (120v)
and misc hand power tools off extension cables to just outside the shed

I obviously wont be using everything at once but the compressor on the freezer and the welder being on at the same time kind of concerns me.
Having any three at the same time also concerns me.

Questions:
1 - Should I run direct bury cable if possible unless it is cheaper to run independent cables in conduit.

2 - How big a circuit should I run off my panel at the trailer?

3 - What size cable for the 100 foot run?

4 - Do i need to drive a grounding rod at the shed?

5 - I see lots of double pole breakers but they take all power from one leg? Do I need to run 2 single pole breaker, one from each leg and run dual phase 240V?
This is the main question because of the SINGLE PHASE welder.

Thanks much
 
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  #2  
Old 03-06-14, 04:19 PM
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# 51 Feeding a sub panel complete instructions - YouTube
It sounds like you need some heavy duty connections. I don't think direct buy or anything less than #4 wire is going to do the trick. What about a second drop from the power company, to the shed?
 
  #3  
Old 03-06-14, 04:56 PM
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Elect to Shed

Not knowing what your loads actually are here is what I came up with.Using three 1500 watt small appliance circuits for the compressor, tools and freezer and allowing 1000 watts for lights and figuring a Lincoln Buzz Box welder that is rated 50amps with a 20% duty cycle (.45 multi) adds 5400 watts. So splitting that up on a small panel I get 5200 watts on one leg and 5700 on the other. 5700/120= 47.5 amps, so I figure a 120/240 1ph3w feeder rated at 50amps will be more than enough capacity.

While the conductors would fit in a 3/4" PVC Sch-40 conduit, I would use 1", but thats just my preference. I would install Galv 90-deg elbows at each end of the run as it makes pulling easier. #6 THWN-CU will keep you right at a 2% drop with a full 50amp load which you will most likely not have. So voltage drop will not be an issue. Your feeder will be 2-#6THWN-CU Black and 1-#6 THWN-CU White (code does not allow #6 to be identified with white tape) the Grounding conductor should be #10 THWN-CU Green (can be bare also).

You will need a ground rod at the shed, a main breaker can be a back-feed breaker with hold down clamp and labeled as the main. You can run #6 copper to your ground rod at the shed if not subject to damage. The neutral should not be bonded to ground at the shed. You will need a separate ground bar in the panel for the grounds to terminate and for connection to the ground rod.

All receptacles except the welder must have GFCI protection at the shed.
 
  #4  
Old 03-06-14, 05:07 PM
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Ok I can ask the power company if they can do that. It would to a separate meter right?
I got some if what you mentioned but what are the two black for? Single phase?
 
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Old 03-06-14, 05:18 PM
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I see lots of double pole breakers but they take all power from one leg? Do I need to run 2 single pole breaker, one from each leg and run dual phase 240V?
This is the main question because of the SINGLE PHASE welder...

1 ea 220 Volt Single Phase Welder...

what are the two black for? Single phase?
Yes. Single-phase 240. That's the power you have. It's brought in on two 120V hot-to-ground legs. Connecting to both 120V legs gives you the full 240V.

I would install a 60A subpanel in the shed and feed it with #4AWG copper conductors from a 60A breaker in your existing panel. Just for future-proofing.
 
  #6  
Old 03-06-14, 05:23 PM
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Ok so are you suggesting a 60 amp circuit along with a drop from the elec company or just a single 60 amp 240 from my panel to the shed?
If I opt to go from my panel to the she's with everything mentioned earlier would a 60 amp circuit be enough? Am concerned if am running the welder and the freezer compressor kicks in??? What if a light is also on or several lights?

Thanks much
 
  #7  
Old 03-06-14, 08:19 PM
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Ok so are you suggesting a 60 amp circuit along with a drop from the elec company or just a single 60 amp 240 from my panel to the shed?
Whichever's easier. In most places, a new service means a separate bill with all of the base charges built in, so that will be more expensive every month.

If I opt to go from my panel to the she's with everything mentioned earlier would a 60 amp circuit be enough? Am concerned if am running the welder and the freezer compressor kicks in??? What if a light is also on or several lights?
It should be more than enough. Bahtah did the calculation earlier and only got to 50A. I suggested 60A to give you a margin for future loads.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 08:21 AM
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#6 copper or #4 aluminum can be protected by a 60 amp breaker. So even at 100', #6Cu/#4Al would be fine as you mentioned that everything will not be running at once.

If you think you want the option to go bigger later, I would install a larger conduit rather then install larger wire.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 09:26 AM
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Game plan set

Excellent advise from everyone.
I think I have enough information to move forward.
All your help if truly appreciated.

Thanks much
 
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Old 03-08-14, 09:37 AM
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Actually I do have one more question

Ok, this is a bit unrelated to the instructions but am wondering.

On one of the responses I was told to use 2 BLACK cables so I would have a single phase circuit going to the shed.

What if in the future I need something in the shed that requires 2 phase?
Would it be advisable to just run dual phase to the shed?

The reason I ask this is that would require that I pull one 60 amp breaker from the left side of the panel and one from the right side of the panel in the house right?
 
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Old 03-08-14, 10:05 AM
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shed

On one of the responses I was told to use 2 BLACK cables so I would have a single phase circuit going to the shed.
Actually it said:
Your feeder will be 2-#6THWN-CU Black and 1-#6 THWN-CU White (code does not allow #6 to be identified with white tape) the Grounding conductor should be #10 THWN-CU Green (can be bare also).
It said two blacks because using #6 would require the Neutral to be White. If you go larger(#4) than you can run three blacks and identify the neutral with white tape. So your feeder is 120/240 1PH3W plus the ground conductor.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 10:05 AM
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What if in the future I need something in the shed that requires 2 phase?
Would it be advisable to just run dual phase to the shed?
There is single phase power and there is three phase power, you have single phase power in your home. I am sure you'll want to run 2 hots, 1 neutral and 1 ground in the conduit; a total of 4 wires. That will give you the same voltages, 120/240, you have in your home.
 
  #13  
Old 03-08-14, 11:24 AM
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Phase

Ok I see, I think that is where am confused because an electrician came by to connect our dryer when we first moved in the house.
When we moved in the dryer would not heat up.
It would run so he looked in the panel and realized that the red and black leads to the dryer were running off one dual breaker on the same leg.
He said that the dryer I have required dual phase power so he pulled a the black cable and connected it to a breaker on the other leg (left side).
So I was under the impression that what was coming into my house was two phase.

I guess this is unrelated but what if I need to run something at the shed that requires power like the dryer that needs one 120 from one side and one 120 from the other side?

Thanks much and sorry for the confusion.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 12:30 PM
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Ok I see, I think that is where am confused because an electrician came by to connect our dryer when we first moved in the house.
When we moved in the dryer would not heat up.
It would run so he looked in the panel and realized that the red and black leads to the dryer were running off one dual breaker on the same leg.
What is the make and model of your distribution panel? I'm asking because that sounds exactly backwards. The two 120V legs of your single-phase 120/240V service should be supplying alternating rows of breakers. Like this:

1 A 2
3 B 4
5 A 6
7 B 8

etc.

He said that the dryer I have required dual phase power so he pulled a the black cable and connected it to a breaker on the other leg (left side).
240V power should only be available by connecting to two vertically adjacent positions. That's why a 240V breaker is a two-pole breaker that is connected to the two supply legs. What does the breaker that supplies and protects your dryer look like?

So I was under the impression that what was coming into my house was two phase.
Many of us refer to the two legs as the two phases. That's not inaccurate but it can be confusing. Calling them "legs" helps avoid that confusion.

I guess this is unrelated but what if I need to run something at the shed that requires power like the dryer that needs one 120 from one side and one 120 from the other side?
Like your
1 ea 220 Volt Single Phase Welder?
You'll need to install a 240V 2-pole breaker to supply that.

Thanks much and sorry for the confusion.
No problem. I think the confusion was probably given to you, unintentionally, by one of us, just talking the same way we talk every day on the job. I wish we could come up with labels that would avoid that. Maybe we will, but the ones we have now have been around a good long while.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 01:00 PM
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I'll take pics when I get home

I'll take pics when I get home but in the interim.
So if I connect the dryer to a 2 pole breaker (adjacent connections) the dryer does not heat up.
If I connect it to 2 breakers that separate it does heat up.
I didn't think about as maybe maybe your drawing may show the answer.
The panel is a Federal Pacific I believe
 
  #16  
Old 03-08-14, 01:00 PM
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mrojas0935, do you have a General Electric circuit breaker panel? Some GE panels (and a couple of other manufacturers that I don't remember) can use "1/2 width" circuit breakers that allow two adjacent CBs to be on the same "leg" of the service.

There IS such a thing as "two-phase" power but it is unlikely that you will ever see it. I doubt that there has been any utilization equipment for two-phase installed since the early 1930s. In the very early days of the electrical power industry two-phase was more common but by even as early as the turn to the twentieth century it was being phased out, pun intended. There is still some two-phase equipment in use but it is becoming rarer and rarer as the years go by.

Edit: We both posted at the same time. If I recall correctly both Federal Pacific and Zinsco had single-pole CBs that were specific to either the left bus or the right bus. Two right bus (or left bus) CBs adjacent would be on the same leg. Since the electrical code requires simultaneous trip on a 240 volt load it is required to use a two-pole circuit breaker and that solves the problem.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 02:41 PM
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Ok so I think I have it figured out. I thought each side of the panel was drawing power from the separate feed up top and therefore the left side of the panel was one phase and the right side was another phase and when you drew from both sides with out the center wire you would get 240V because they were out of phase and the peak of the wave would be at 180 apart form each other and therefore twice as much differential as from 120 peak of wave to center wire.
I am a musician and was thinking of electricity as music sine wave current.

Ok so looking at the panel yes the breakers sit as you mentioned earlier
1 A 2
3 B 4
5 A 6

But as far as the physical single breakers are concerned it looks like it draws like this:
1 A 2
3 A 4
5 B 6
7 B 8
9 A 10
11 A 12
etc

So with a dual pole 30 am breaker the two poles on the breaker sit on the same leg.
I don't know why he put the second breaker on the other side as if I understand correctly he could have put the second breaker on a slot that was 3 slots away from the first breaker on the same side to tap from the other leg.
But that be as it may.
But what I also dont understand is it looks like the breakers have a slot in them that allows you to put one side of the breaker on one leg and the other side of the leg on the second leg which to me seems like would be the intended purpose so that you dont have a wasted slot of two 30 dual breakers???
(See pictures attached)

Ok so looks like whoever made this system also made a 60 Amp breaker that spans 4 actual single breaker slots and from the looks of it it draws one side from one leg and the other side from the other leg.
(See pictures attached)

I take it theoretically he could have used the 60 amp breaker to power the dryer but then it would be over sized for a dryer circuit??????

I only put the 60 amp breaker on the picture to show the difference in breaker size compared to the other 30 amp breakers.

So if we are talking slots only it looks like the system is made to accept:
Singles = 15 and 20 amp
Dual = 20, 25, 30 and 40 amp
Quad = 50 and up

I want to use the 60 amp breaker for the circuit going to the shed and from what I can tell it should land on the two opposite legs as designed.

Ok so I pull from that 60 amp breaker, 2 black wires (6 copper or 4 aluminum), then 1 White for the center so that I can split the shed into 120V services and the ones that need 240V would tap off the left and right legs without a center, and a ground wire.

Does the ground going from the house get connected, along with the ground from the rod at the shed, to the the grounding strip on the sub panel?

Thanks much
 
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Old 03-08-14, 02:58 PM
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Code

Ok so I caught on a key issue when you mentioned about code requiring that a 240 volt breaker trip together.
The way he had it wired it was using 2 SEPARATE breakers to pull 120 from each side to the dryer. They could not possibly trip together unless both sides of the circuit tripped independently for some reason.

So since the 30 amp on one side allows me to split it between two adjacent leg connections I figured shouldn't it be wired like on the picture I have attached here? One breaker with one pole drawing from one leg connector and the pole drawing from the other leg connector?
 
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Old 03-08-14, 03:28 PM
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Yes, this last picture shows a 240 volt connection. In the previous pictures the CB on the right bottom is what is known as a "tandem" CB and it is NOT a 2-pole model but two single pole CBs in a single case the same width as a standard single pole CB. You have several of these in the panel. The 60 ampere CB IS a true 2-pole CB and when it is closed (on) the voltage measurement should be 240 volts across its terminals. This would be where you would connect the wiring to the shed.

Yes, the equipment ground from the feeder (from the house) AND the grounding electrode conductor (wire from the ground rod) at the shed both go to the equipment grounding bus which will be "bonded" (in electrical contact) to the enclosure. The white neutral wire will go to the neutral bus and the neutral bus will NOT be bonded to the enclosure. This means if there is any green screw in the neutral bus or any strap from the neutral bus to the enclosure it must be removed.
 

Last edited by Furd; 03-08-14 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Correct misspelled word.
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Old 03-08-14, 03:38 PM
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Excellent,, ok am getting it.
So from what I have seen and read, only the first (Main) connection coming from the transformer is what get bonded neutral to ground and all other sub panels do not get bonded neutral to ground right?
 
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Old 03-08-14, 04:00 PM
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That is correct, the neutral-equipment ground bond is ONLY at the first overcurrent protective device (fuse or circuit breaker) and all subsequent panels must have the neutral and equipment ground isolated from each other.
 
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Old 03-08-14, 07:30 PM
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While you are working on planning electrical projects, you should also start getting some quotes on replacing the Federal Pacific panel. FPE panels are a known fire hazard. Here is some good information for you on FPE hazards.

The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-LokŪ Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-LokŪ Repairs
 
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Old 03-08-14, 08:19 PM
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Yes it is at the top of my list now, I looked it up once I could not breakers for it anywhere but online and used ones at that.
I priced the panel at around $200 with the breakers I need.
Is this something I can do myself if I have the power company shut off at the meter?
Siemens for a replacement pane?
 
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Old 03-09-14, 07:17 AM
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One last question which am finding kind of silly but when I was thinking about it I started wondering..
How do I do the grounding rod?
Are they special grounding rods I buy from Lowe's or an electrical supply? Rebar?
Do I dig a post hole and use concrete or just force drive it into the ground?
The guy at Lowes is not very knowledgeable or I would ask them.

Thanks much
 
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Old 03-09-14, 07:40 AM
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Are they special grounding rods I buy from Lowe's or an electrical supply?
Yes. Example: ERITECH 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod-615880UPC at The Home Depot
Rebar?
Not for driving into the ground. If it is an integral part of the slab yes but that doesn't apply here. (Google Ufer ground if your interested.)
Do I dig a post hole and use concrete or just force drive it into the ground?
You just drive it in the ground till it is slightly below ground level.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 08:09 AM
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Yes. Example: ERITECH 5/8 in. x 8 ft. Copper Ground Rod-615880UPC at The Home Depot
A 1/2" X 8' long rod is acceptable by the NEC, it doesn't have to be 5/8" diameter. In fact, I didn't know Home Depot stocked 5/8" ground rods. You can get a 1/2" X 8' rod at any big box store, most hardware stores or any electrical supply.
 
  #27  
Old 03-09-14, 05:24 PM
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Be sure to add the Acorn clamp BEFORE driving the rod. Driving will mushroom the end making the installation of the clamp difficult to impossible.
 
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Old 03-24-14, 05:37 PM
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Is this allowed?
Basically can I pull off a both a 220 and a 120 outlet from an outside junction box that I am using to run the 220 to the shed with?
The reason I ask is this would allow me to also have 220 near the garage in case I want to use the welder there and some power tools.
 
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Old 03-24-14, 06:49 PM
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The outside receptacle needs to be protected at no greater than 20 amps. You can do this other ways, just not off the 50 amp feeder.
 
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Old 03-24-14, 07:05 PM
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Ok I wasn't sure but yea it makes sense..
Thanks much
 
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Old 03-24-14, 07:10 PM
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How do I go about looking at what local code is? I there a web site or somewhere that gives me the code info for my area? Is it a federal code?

Thanks much
 
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Old 03-24-14, 08:17 PM
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How do I go about looking at what local code is? I there a web site or somewhere that gives me the code info for my area? Is it a federal code?
There are no Federal codes, all codes are local and are probably based upon whatever version of the NEC has been adopted locally. Contact your local building department, usually found under local Public Works of your local governement. They can tell you what codes or amendments to the NEC are in force locally.
 
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Old 03-24-14, 08:41 PM
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Excellent, sounds good, I'll look into it
thanks much
 
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Old 03-26-14, 10:42 AM
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Old 03-26-14, 05:56 PM
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But, NEC adoption is also always subject to local amendments. You always want to check with the AHJ before starting a project.
 
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Old 03-26-14, 06:11 PM
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