Installing outdoor welder receptacle

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  #1  
Old 03-09-14, 08:12 AM
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Installing outdoor welder receptacle

I'm planning on installing a NEMA 6-50R receptacle on the side of the house outside. I thought I'd use a Leviton 5374 or similar:



I know these receptacles are awfully wide though. Will one fit in a regular 1-gang weatherproof box like they sell for GFCIs? Or if I need a 2-gang one and a mud ring or something, can anyone recommend a compatible box?

My more pressing question is: How do you usually get LBs (or anything, such as a WP box) mounted flush with the house? Say I run EMT through the wall to outside. Now I have to put on a raintight compression connector and those things are HUGE. Am I supposed to drill the hole large enough to push the whole thing back into the wall, or am I missing something? I'm going to need some much larger hole saws if that's the case. Even if I didn't use a raintight connector, the set screw ones would need a pretty large hole too. I've heard of people cutting off the screws after they're tightened, but I'm not sure if that's legal. It just seems awfully destructive cutting a 2" hole for say 1/2" EMT. And since the LB won't cover it you have a whole goopy mess of caulk to look at.

Would rigid or IMC make things any better, visually? I'm thinking like a nipple for the wall penetration. The only problem with that idea is it wouldn't be exactly the right length so I'd have a junction box a few inches off the wall in the basement/crawl space hanging there. Again, probably not legal.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 10:11 AM
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Welcome to the forums!

The receptacle will work in a 2 gang box. I recommend the deepest 2 gang weather proof you can get if you plan to surface mount it, or a two gang remodel box if you want to flush mount it in the wall.

How you wire it will depend on the wiring method you are using. Are you using NM-b cable, EMT, or PVC? NM cable would likely be the easiest and should only require a 1 1/2" hole through the siding at most if you did surface mount and feed it through the back of the box. You do not need a raintight connecter for the back of the box.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 10:32 AM
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Ok, so I do need a 2-gang. Thanks. I was wondering why the recep had 3 holes on top and bottom for mounting; that explains it. I'll see what Arlington has to offer for WP boxes. This is going on vinyl siding.

As for wiring method, it's going to be EMT. The crawl space gets visits from critters and all the NM I have down there is missing sheath and will be replaced. EMT or rigid for this run. That's why I mentioned the monstrous size of those EMT compression connectors. I can deal with a hackish-looking job outside if I have to, but I'm not putting NM or UF in there again. The 2-gang box should cover this hole I guess.

The LB is for another run a few feet away, not for this recep. Different issue. The penetration for the LB will not be covered by a box that's why I'm concerned about hole size. Seems to me, (from memory) whenever I see an LB on another property I don't see bulky connectors behind it, just a smooth pipe into the wall. Maybe I'll have to take a little tour of the city and check out their handiwork.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 10:58 AM
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I like EMT but don't forget the option of electrical PVC. Critters do not tend to chew it and for some people it is easier to use. I would not use rigid.

The conduit run you should only 3/4" max conduit. You can really get 3 - #8 THHN wires in a 1/2" but 3/4" might be easier to push in depending on your bends. Again, If the pipe is in the wall it does not need to be compression. For 3/4" connector a 1" or so hole should be big enough through the wall. One method you can use is to drill the hole in the wall, connect the connecter to the box and install a short piece of pipe. Then attach the assembly to the wall and run the pipe back to the panel.

With the LB, IF you use PVC the conduit glues directly to the LB, no fitting needed. If you use steel, then you will need a connector that screws into the LB.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:06 AM
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You have not addressed how the face of the receptacle from moisture/rain/snow, as well as the completed connection.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:08 AM
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A two gang in-use cover should work for that.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:13 AM
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I just checked a Raco 3/4" ins throat connector I have sitting here and 1-3/8" hole is necessary, including the set screw head. Which will leave at least a 1/4" gap all the way around the connector, where the set screw isn't. That's tolerable, I was just wondering if I was missing some trick.

And yes I'm planning on running 3/4" EMT with #8 CCC's but #10 EGC. OCPD @ 40A because I'll be pulling in a couple #12's in the same pipe for a GFCI right next to it outside, and after derating I understand I've only got 44A on those #8s. I know dedicated welder circuits can be overfused but this is also shared with the 240V range receptacle, even though I have no electric range in the house, long story.

I think I'm square now. This 'nuts and bolts' stuff is the only part I don't like about wiring. Thanks for the help.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:16 AM
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A two gang in-use cover should work for that.
Does it need to be an in-use cover? Those bubble things tend to get broken off. Anyone who stands in the wet snow with welding leads in their hands is just asking for it.

I had a nice low-profile one picked out on that Pratt site that came up as a suggestion with the recep, but that was before I learned it was going to have to be 2 gang.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:22 AM
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That's tolerable, I was just wondering if I was missing some trick.
I would drill a smaller hole and then just make a notch for the setscrew.

#8 THHN is rated at 55 amps. You have 4 CCC in the pipe with the #12's which gives you the 44 amps you posted. There is no 44 amp breaker so you can go to the next size up which is 50 amps. If you already have the 40 amp breaker, that is fine too, I just wanted to give you all the options.

Does it need to be an in-use cover?
Yes. They do make metal ones that are more durable.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:30 AM
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I will drill a smaller hole and then just make a notch for the setscrew.
Genius! Hah that never even occurred to me. That's slick!!

There is no 44 amp breaker so you can go to the next size up which is 50 amps
I can? I thought that was just for if the calculated load was definitely going to be known. Something like an A/C, range, something dedicated. They could say you don't know what someone else is going to plug in there. The fact that I'm sharing it with a range receptacle makes my standing even more dicey there.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 11:52 AM
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Nope. Technically the circuit needs to be sized for the load(s) being served so having both the welder and range on the same circuit would be a violation. However, since you are using the range receptacle, and the circuit is protected by the proper sized breaker for the wiring, I don't see it being a big issue. You still can't go higher then the ampacity listed in 310.15(b)(2)

I suggest disconnecting the wires going to the range receptacle, but just taping the off so they can be reconnected later if things ever change and you/somebody else needs it.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 08:12 PM
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There is no 44 amp breaker so you can go to the next size up which is 50 amps
I can? I thought that was just for if the calculated load was definitely going to be known
That's why you are using a 50 amp receptacle.
 
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Old 03-09-14, 09:51 PM
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Welder Receptacle

Does it need to be an in-use cover? Those bubble things tend to get broken off.
You do not need an in-use cover for your receptacle only one that is weather resistant when not-in use. That is because the receptacle is attended when being used and over 20 amps. I would agree that one of the metal WP covers should be used, it just does not have to be the In-Use type.
 
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Old 03-10-14, 04:15 AM
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Arlington | Service Entrance SLB Conduit Bodies

Service entrance LB

WP flip cover

Weather-Resistant Receptacle Covers

It is tight , but they can be installed in a single gang box .

God bless
Wyr
 
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Old 03-10-14, 06:11 AM
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Weather-Resistant Receptacle Covers

It is tight , but they can be installed in a single gang box .
I'd like to use a 2-gang so it's not so crammed... if possible, that is. I noticed in your link that all those WR covers are 1-gang. Do they make 2-gang covers with a circular hole in the middle? So far I've only located one, which was a cheap sliding clear plastic cover which doesn't look like it would last long. It's a clearance item on Grainger. Heck even some of these 1-gang flip-up covers look way too small for a welding receptacle. Wish they'd supply measurements with this stuff so I know it's the right size. I'm starting to think that ordering the stuff is going to be harder than the actual installation.
 
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Old 03-10-14, 07:51 AM
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I'm starting to think that ordering the stuff is going to be harder than the actual installation.
Check with a supply house, they'll probably have what you want.
 
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Old 03-10-14, 08:10 AM
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You could buy a small weather proof 60 amp breaker box or A/C disconnect, gut it, and mount the receptacle inside it. Looks wise not great and blending into the siding might be difficult but something to consider. You could use a non weather proof 4x4 box and cover inside the housing.
 
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Old 03-10-14, 08:35 AM
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Check with a supply house, they'll probably have what you want.
Good idea. I do have accounts at the major supply houses around here. Their online order system is great for finding things... after you know exactly what you want.

I did manage to find a couple on there that look like they'll work fine:

BEL 5036-0 COVER VERT 2G F/1 2.156" DIA

$30 a pop. Looks like my options are 2.156" or 2.625" diameter. I picked a random recep from the same supply house and the specs say "FACE OUTER DIA 2.1 INCH". So I'm assuming the 2.156" one is the one I need.
 
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Old 03-10-14, 10:04 AM
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I've used these before and switched the 14-50 with a 6-50.

Eaton 50 Amp 1-Space 1-Circuit Temporary RV Power Outlet Box-CHU1S at The Home Depot
 
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Old 03-10-14, 10:22 AM
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I've used these before and switched the 14-50 with a 6-50
That's not a bad idea! In fact, since I've got an RV sitting around I may just leave the 14-50 in there and shell out the bucks for an adapter cord. This seems rather more useful than a 240V-only setup. I'm really liking this idea. THANKS!
 
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