Bathroom fan install with wet location question

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  #1  
Old 04-28-14, 01:06 AM
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Question Bathroom fan install with wet location question

At long last I was able to get under my floor and run a new dedicated circuit to my bathroom for the new bathroom fan install. Thank you all who helped me on the advise last year.

I am getting ready now to install the fan A Panasonic "FV-11VHL2"


The new fan is a major upgrade in terms of features as it has a fan,heat, light and a night light.

The old fan was linked to a light above the shower. When I got up in to the attic the light was looking very worse for wear and maybe was not a true wet location light or just was not air tight.

What I want to know is can I do the same thing and link the fan and light together. If so what are the requirements in MO for a wet location light do I need it to be on a GFCI ?

Just to confirm the fan will be outside the shower but a secondary light is currently recessed above the shower.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 11:04 AM
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Thank you for the reply , I pretty much knew that the light above the shower should have been gfci.

I wish they had done it when the house was built , I do have gfci sockets around near sinks and in the kitchen but here I can't think where I could put one.

I will try and draw the layout but would a gfci breaker be an option it would force the fan of cause go be on it but right now it's the only thing I can think of.
 
  #3  
Old 04-28-14, 11:14 AM
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The light over the shower does not require GFI protection. If the fan/light combination is over a tub or shower it does require GFI protection per the installation instructions.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 12:09 PM
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Here is a quick drawing of my shower area



As this might help show what I am working on
 
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Old 04-28-14, 01:30 PM
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The NEC does not require GFI for the light, nor the fan combination since it is not over shower.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 02:31 PM
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Thank you for the feedback.

In terms of the light above the shower should I look for a recessed light fitting listed for a wet location and then also look for wet location cover.

Just did doing a test wire to confirm all parts of fan are working.

Fan features

1. Fan
2. Heat
3. Light
4. Night light ( just a black wire)

Shower light feature
1. Light

I need just about to test night light and see how much light it gives

But thinking that all functions need to be on there own switch apart from the light and the shower light as I will put them on a shared switch .

What type of wire should I run 2 x 12/3' ?
 
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Old 04-28-14, 03:52 PM
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I would run smurf tube from the switch to the fan/light with individual conductors.

The trim for the recessed can be damp or wet rated.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 04:16 PM
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Smurf tube , I had to Google that to find out what it was can I ask why ?
My guess is then only one object running in the wall so easy to fish it. And the reason to run single wires so it's easy to trace and follow ?

How would you recommend for my splice to the shower light ? on the old fan they did it in the fan it's self and just ran a wire back out to the shower light .
 
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Old 04-28-14, 05:26 PM
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All conductors to each function of the device must be in the same raceway so generally multiple cables aren't used because that increases the total number of wires in the usually small junction box (Three 2-conductor cables=9 wires including grounds or one 2-conductor cable + one 3-conductor cable=7 wires including grounds.) If you use cable and power came in at the switch you would need the not so common 4-conductor cable +ground. If power comes in at the combo you would need 5-conductor cable +ground (if it exists) to meet 2011 code requirements for a neutral at the switch.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 06:48 PM
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The ENT, aka smurf tube, allows for a reduction in the number of conductors in the small fan junction box. The splices are still made in the JB on the fan. In the smurf you will have one neutral, one ground and a switched hot for each function.

You could run a xx-2 cable from the switch to the recessed.
 
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Old 04-28-14, 09:54 PM
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Thank you as always for your help the last 2 comments have confused me a little so might be best to get this right now before I go any further.

I have run new wire up to the old single pole switch as the fan required a dedicated 20Amp feed (so there is a neutral there).

I will need to replace the single wall box with a deep wall box and depending on the number of switches will set the gang box size.

I will drill a hold in the top wall plate and then feed the "smuf tube" down to the new gang plate.

All of the new wires running to the fan will be in the same "smuf tube"

I should be looking for 12/4 wire for this project (if I can find it)
 
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Old 04-28-14, 10:45 PM
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I should be looking for 12/4 wire for this project (if I can find it)
No. 12-4 would be cable not wire. You are using Smurf so that you don't have to use cable. You need five pieces of #12 THHN/THWN wire. One Green, one white, and three that are not white gray or green such as three black, or black, red, blue, or black, red, yellow.
 
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Old 04-29-14, 12:26 AM
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Got you sorry for being so slow, Thats a real nice way of doing the wiring going to have a look around and see what 12 gauge wire I have other wise will see if I can get some colours that your said that would be acceptable eg not the earth/ground and not neutral colours.

Next question would be around the switches as you saw the room is so small so trying to cut down on the number of switches so it does not look like mission control.

1. Timer for the fan
2. Dual relay occupancy sensor, That would be used for the night light and then the other switch would be for the main light (Need to check that the occupancy sensor can power the 5 watt night light
3 Heater switch


I have been trying to see if I could get a timer and switch in one that way I could cut down to just 2 switches and still switch all devices but please let me know of any ideas you have for the switches.
 
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Old 04-29-14, 06:09 AM
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I think all the timers will be dedicated devices.
 
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Old 04-29-14, 09:58 AM
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Can only seem to find timers with dimmers but will keep looking.
 
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Old 04-29-14, 01:16 PM
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Old 04-29-14, 01:42 PM
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Sorry for not making that last comment clear , I was looking to see if I could switch all devices but only use to 2 switches/timers.

In terms of the light I found a dual relay occupancy sensor to switch both lights so was looking to see if I could find a fan timer with a switch so that my wall did not be come a panel of switches.
 
  #18  
Old 04-30-14, 12:06 AM
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I searched high and low but could not find a timer with a built in switch.

So what I am thinking is to put the light and heat inside the bathoom and then mount the fan timer on the other side of the wall. About a foot away on the other side of the wall is a set of switches where i could mount the fan.

I will head to the electrical store and see what I can pickup, otherwise fall back to the big box stores.

Are there special gang boxes that take the ENT /Smuf tube , looking on like i saw a number of people just drilled holes in the blue gang box is that allowed ?
 
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Old 04-30-14, 12:08 AM
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You can use metal boxes or ones with knockouts for the connectors.
 
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Old 05-01-14, 09:50 AM
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My main electrical store closed early for a stock check , and Lowe's did not have any deep 2 gang metal boxes so had to go with a plastic one and drill a hole and then use s clip to secure. Going to start later today and will post pics.
 
  #21  
Old 05-01-14, 12:46 PM
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Here are a few photos of the work in progress



The outside wall that currently has 2 vanity light switches that will be changed to a 3 gang where I decided to put the fan control.




On the other side of the wall showing the old single switch that was used to control the lights and bathroom fan getting ready to try and cut the nasty 80's pink tile to try and put in a 2 gang box , yellow wire is the new dedicated 20 Amp circuit.
 
  #22  
Old 05-02-14, 12:57 AM
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It took me a couple of hours to cut the nasty pink tile and replace the old 1 gang electrical box with a 2 gang box.

Replacing the 2 gang box on the other side of the wall with a 3 gang box also took a while,I am sure you will tell me there was a easier was to do this.... but I cut the box and then pulled it out. I did find the old box was much taller in size than my new box and I might have to patch the wall a little. This might have been why they used such a large switch cover.

I had to go to work so stopped for the day but I do have some questions.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to do, As this fancy fan has so many switches and the little shower room area is so small, I am going to put the fan timer on the other side of the wall but keep the switches for the light and heat functions in side the shower room area.


Here is a new diagram showing where things are






On other side of the little shower area was a 2 gang switch that powered lights above 2 vanity units. I changed this out for a 3 gang unit so i would have room for the new fan timer.

But I am not sure how best to wire the fan timer in , do I run 2 cables in from the first box ? one bringing power to the switch and then one bring it back to go up to the fan ?


Here is a photo excuse how messy the box looks it will be cleaned up



This would mean 2 different power supplies coming in to the same gang box is that allowed ( they are on 2 different breakers)
 
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Old 05-06-14, 12:02 AM
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Hi guys just bumping this thread sorry my posts are so long winded but I will try summaries.

On one side of the wall I have a 2 gang box and on the other I have a 3 gang, so as not have to put a 3 gang on both sides I am putting the fan control in to the 3 gang. The hot for the fan control is coming from the 2 gang.

How do a wire the fan in the 3 gang box with the power coming from the 2 gang box on the other side of the wall . I then need to be able to run the load wire back to the 2 gang box and up smurf tube to the big fan along with the other load wires for multiple functions of the fan.
 
  #24  
Old 05-06-14, 06:19 AM
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The two gang box feed will have a feed out cable to the three gang box to power it.

On a side note, the sheath on the cables should extend at least 1/4" into the box past the clamps. The cable should not sneak past the side of the clamp.
 
  #25  
Old 05-06-14, 11:50 PM
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Thanks pcboss for the reply, The cables you see are what was in the original box they left no spare cable in the wall but will try and pull more in, Any tips ?

but I will make sure when I run the feed cable I leave some in the wall and 1/4" in the box.

I need to then run a cable back from the fan in the 3 gang box to the 2 gang box it will just be a "hot" wire. Should I just use a 12/2 to return even through I am just running 1 wire back ?
 
  #26  
Old 05-07-14, 06:02 AM
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Not sure we are understanding. The cable out will also take the neutral to the other switch box. You do not want to try to use switch loops on the exhaust fans. The junction box is small enough without adding additional wires.
 
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Old 05-08-14, 12:54 AM
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Hi pcboss, I am sorry if I am not clear, I will try and explain what I have done

When I had a simple fan the power came from the 2 gang box out side of the bathroom. The power came from a feeder cable from the 2 gang to the single gang box inside the bathroom that just controlled all functions of the fan with a single switch.

I looked to upgrade the fan and it was recommended that due to the heat and extra functions that I run a dedicated 20 AMP circuit as the power that was coming on the old fan powered many other lights out side the bathroom (That room is the master bedroom so it powered quite a few things).

I replaced the 1 gang box in side the bathroom with a 2 gang box and run the power up from inside the wall direct to this new 2 gang box. That then has 2 switches to control the heat and light. As the bathroom was so small. I decided that the fan timer could sit out side the bathroom. So I change the 2 gang to a 3 gang.


In this 3 gang box I have 2 switches that power lights in the bed room they are powered from a circuit that i could not use for the fan as it was shared with many other devices in the bedroom.

I now need to run the power from the 2 gang to the 3 gang and only give power to the fan control. But I then need to run the wire back to the 2 gang as this is where I have the smuff tube going up to the fan.


Sorry its so long winded let me know if you want me to draw it out for you.
 
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Old 05-08-14, 06:05 PM
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Here is a pen an paper drawing show the 2 box these are about a foot apart one on other side of the wall.

The 2 gang is in the tiny shower/ bathroom
The 3 gang is on the other side of the wall in the bedroom

Trying to work out how to run power to the fan timer and then the load back in to the 2 gang box and up smuff tube.


 
  #29  
Old 05-08-14, 08:15 PM
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Splice a xx-2 cable to the incoming power and run to the other switch box to supply power there.

In the smurf tube you will run a switched hot for each function along with one neutral and one green ground up to the fan unit.
 
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Old 05-09-14, 11:31 AM
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Thanks for the post pcboss,and being able to stick with me on this

what I need to know is yes I can run incomming power over to the other box for the fan timer but how do I then take the switched hot from that and bring it back to the first box and then up the smurf tube with all the other switched hots.

Could I do this

run the power first to the fan timer and "then" run a 12-3 with ground to the smaller box in the bathroom. I would then use the black to spice in and power the other switches and then use the red to be a switched leg to go up the smurf tube.

My switches just came in so I can go take a mock photo of what I am trying to do
 
  #31  
Old 05-09-14, 09:21 PM
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Here is a wire mockup nothing is connected it is just to show what I am trying to do.
The fan would be connected to the smurf tube and you can see all the wires that are used to do the switching. The yellow wire is the dedicated 20 Amp feed for the fan but how to wire the fan timer in when it sits in the other gang box about a foot away.




( The yellow wire can go to either box)
 
  #32  
Old 05-13-14, 09:19 AM
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Can I bump this posting and ask for help again
 
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Old 05-13-14, 09:32 AM
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I have tried to reread this thread and follow it but I am lost. Can you restate what it is you currently need help with.

Please use a better hosting site like Photobucket or Imageshack or load directly from your computer. http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html Luckily I was able to enlarge your last thumbnail but please use full size pictures about 600 to 800 pixels wide not thumbnails.

Name:  p8n29awd.jpg
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Size:  23.9 KB
 
  #34  
Old 05-15-14, 10:58 PM
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Hi ray2047 , I am sorry about the picture ,if you click on the thumbnail it should take you to a larger picture,

But here is the photo again using a direct link to the image



In the above picture are my 2 gang boxes, The yellow cable is my new dedicated 20 AMP feed for the bathroom fan. (The yellow cable can go to either box)

How should I go about supplying power to the fan timer that needs to sit in the "3 gang box" and then I run the switched hot back to the "2 gang box" and up the smurf tube.

I know this has to be simple but as you can see I am confusing my self and all readers.
 
  #35  
Old 05-16-14, 01:46 PM
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You can run a cable between the two boxes. A constant hot will go over and the switched hot will come back and go up the smurf to the fan unit.
 
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