Installing an outlet - no white wire

Reply

  #1  
Old 05-03-14, 06:28 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Installing an outlet - no white wire

We are replacing our electric cooktop with a gas one.

The new cooktop uses an electric ignition that plugs directly into a normal outlet. My job was to take the conduit wiring and convert it to a normal outlet.

My research indicated this should be pretty straightforward, but when I pulled the conduit off the wiring (power is off) there are only three wires.

A black (the hot wire?)
A bare metal (the ground?)
And a red wire (a second or two circuit?)

I've scanned inside the outlet box and see no white wire just waiting to be used.

Any ideas on what my next step should be?

Thanks
 
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 05-03-14, 06:55 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 4,297
There is no neutral on a 220 volt circuit.
Also only need a single pole breaker not a double.
 
  #3  
Old 05-03-14, 07:03 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
.

Joecaption, thanks for your response.

So there is no way for me to use this power box as a standard outlet then?
 
  #4  
Old 05-03-14, 07:03 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
as Joe wrote it is a 240 outlet. You need a regular 120 volt receptacle. Use any near by 120v receptacle.

Tech note: Your house has 240v not 220v.
 
  #5  
Old 05-03-14, 07:08 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Ray,

You mean another outlet? Sadly that is the only one nearby.
 
  #6  
Old 05-03-14, 07:19 PM
Banned. Rule And/Or Policy Violation
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 4,297
Suppose to be one every 4' along the counter tops in a kitchen.
 
  #7  
Old 05-03-14, 07:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
The cord comes out under the cooktop into the cupboard area. There are some outlets along the counter outside the cupboards, and one directly above it about 5 or 6 feet up. The cord won't reach any of those. ANd obviously I'd prefer not to live with an extension cord through the kitchen

Is there a do-it-myself way to use any of those outlets to reach the plug from the new cooktop under the cupboard?

Someone suggested swapping the wires at the breaker box, but that sounds a bit sketchy to me.

Thanks.
 
  #8  
Old 05-03-14, 08:28 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 12,766
Likes Received: 22
Someone suggested swapping the wires at the breaker box, but that sounds a bit sketchy to me
Not sketchy and might be your best, easiest option.

You posted that this is in conduit, is it? Or is it a cable? If it is you could pull out the old wire and pull in some #12 THHN for a 120 volt receptacle.
 
  #9  
Old 05-03-14, 08:43 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
and one directly above it about 5 or 6 feet up.
Then no problem. You just need to install a new receptacle in the cabinet below it. Basically you just:
  • Remove the existing receptacle and box.
  • Cut a hole for a new box in the cabinet.
  • Drop 12-2 NM-b from the existing box to the new box.
  • Install old work boxes in both holes.
  • Install receptacles in both boxes.
Actual connections in the existing box will depend on what is there.
  • Is it a GFCI receptacle or a regular receptacle fed by a GFCI?
  • How many cables in the box?
 
  #10  
Old 05-03-14, 10:07 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
First, thanks to everyone taking the time to help me out. I'm new to this stuff so like to take my time and try and do it right.

So between the two options, which one is the best choice for ease - swapping the wires at the box, or installing a new receptacle?

Tolyn, it is just wires. The wires were put through a flexible conduit just from the old outlet to the cooktop. But at the box it is just wires. Can you tell me, or link me a site, on how to swap these wires exactly? It sounds like I need to pick up a new single breaker box. I'm not familiar with the back of the breaker box, but the concept is that I move the black from a 240 to a 120, and the red to the neutral? Are those labeled on the back?

Ray, do you think this option is preferable over the wire swap? I'm not sure about cutting away at the drywall and managing to run more wires down. Any good tutorials or videos you know of online for what you're talking about?
 
  #11  
Old 05-03-14, 11:35 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
If you have continuous conduit to the box either will work. However you never know you might want to go back to electric someday so I'd leave it and go my way. If you don't have conduit then only my way will work. Do you have what looks like a pipe with a nut on it going into the box? Can you post a picture showing where the wire enters the box? http://www.doityourself.com/forum/li...-pictures.html
 
  #12  
Old 05-04-14, 12:24 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Ray,

Here are some photos of the issue.

Name:  DSCN6509.jpg
Views: 640
Size:  10.2 KBName:  DSCN6510.jpg
Views: 617
Size:  34.3 KBName:  DSCN6512.jpg
Views: 619
Size:  22.8 KBName:  DSCN6514.jpg
Views: 633
Size:  24.1 KBName:  DSCN6515.jpg
Views: 649
Size:  27.8 KBName:  DSCN6516.jpg
Views: 603
Size:  24.2 KB

A photo of the outlet at the top.

A wide shot of the full picture - the open cupboard at the top with the outlet, the open cupboard at the bottom holding the 240 volt wires.

The rest of the shots are the inside of the lower box.
 
  #13  
Old 05-04-14, 03:57 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
Isn't the 120 volt receptacle a dedicated receptacle for the microwave?

Name:  DSCN6510.jpg
Views: 2179
Size:  39.6 KB

The original cook top outlet appears to be SE cable not conduit so new wires there are out. I see two black wires not black and red. And a braided ground or am I wrong. I do not see a nut on threaded pipe going into the box.
 
  #14  
Old 05-04-14, 04:53 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,818
Likes Received: 6
The microwave circuit should be dedicated to the microwave and not shared.

If you try to adapt the existing circuit you are going to need a larger box to fit the connectors.
 
  #15  
Old 05-04-14, 09:15 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Ray,

There is a red wire in the bottom cupboard box. The old cooktop was fed by a black, red, and ground. The other capped wires were not in use for the cooktop.

What do you recommend my plan ought to be? I'm not sure how to feed wires from the left outlet to the cupboard because there is likely a stud between them. Are you saying that the wire swap at the box is not an option?

Thanks again for your input.
 
  #16  
Old 05-04-14, 09:25 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
A dedicated circuit such as one for a built in microwave by code can not be use for anything else.
I'm not sure how to feed wires from the left outlet to the cupboard because there is likely a stud between them.
Not what I meant. You would still drop the wire straight down in to a receptacle. Just the cabinet below the receptacle I marked. You'd drill a hole between the cabinets for the cook top cord.

Name:  DSCN6510.jpg
Views: 1458
Size:  38.2 KB
 
  #17  
Old 05-10-14, 09:07 AM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
Install a new outlet lower on the same wall

I previously posted for some help on changing up the wiring for our cooktop. I've installed a gas cooktop that uses 120 normal outlet, and the old electric used 240.

In that thread some helpful people suggested simply running new wire from an existing outlet to create a new outlet.

There is an existing outlet in a cupboard high up on the wall. I would like to run the wire out of that box straight down the wall to the lower cupboard and install the new outlet there.
Name:  DSCN6510e.jpg
Views: 1145
Size:  37.8 KB

However, the process is new to me. I don't want to cut away, take steps, or damage anything that is not necessary, obviously. If someone could generally walk me through the process, or let me know a good tutorial site, that would be great.

For instance, should I be able to do this without cutting out any of the wall around the upper outlet, or should I expect to have to do that? It seems too tight a fit to properly run the wire out of without cutting some wall away. And what's the best way to bring the wire down the inside of the wall? What are the normal steps I should expect to take? I assume I need to cut out on the lower wall so I can reach the cord and install the box?

I want to make sure my ducks are in a row before any saws or drills get used!

Thanks.


*** It was previously mentioned I could use the left outlet on the counter instead of the upper one to trail from, since it doesn't feed the microwave, but that won't work. Due to some odd construction there's actually a couple crawlspace/pockets beneath that counter that cannot be accessed without removing the whole counter.
 
  #18  
Old 05-10-14, 09:46 AM
pcboss's Avatar
Forum Topic Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Maryland
Posts: 14,818
Likes Received: 6
Unfortunately the over rthe range microwave calls for a dedicated circuit and it should not be shared.
 
  #19  
Old 05-10-14, 10:20 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
Threads have been merged as your new thread was a continuation.
 
  #20  
Old 05-10-14, 10:24 AM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 12,766
Likes Received: 22
While PC boss is 100% correct, and the circuit should not be shared, the minor load of a gas cook top would be fine IMO.
 
  #21  
Old 05-10-14, 10:26 AM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
What is on the right side of the cook top? Do you have unfinished access below the floor?
 
  #22  
Old 05-10-14, 02:40 PM
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 12
I'm not sure what you mean by unfinished access. I've taken some more pictures that will hopefully let you know what I'm looking at.

Here is the setup above the cooktop. The one circuit feeding the microwave.
Attachment 31482

Here is the cooktop and counter. With the infamous left outlet that I don't know how to get to.
Attachment 31483

Here is under the cooktop. You can see the old 240 outlet that isn't doing me any good at the moment. I started putting on the outlet and saw the problem of having no neutral wire (power is off).
Attachment 31486

As I indicated, the left outlet sits above some cupboards that have a false wall before the real wall. These photos should help illustrate the problem.
Name:  DSCN6582.jpg
Views: 659
Size:  33.0 KBName:  DSCN6583.jpg
Views: 635
Size:  29.6 KBName:  DSCN6584.jpg
Views: 705
Size:  27.8 KB

This is under the sink. No real access to power or outlets there, but there is power going to the dishwasher and disposal.
Name:  DSCN6586.jpg
Views: 819
Size:  19.2 KB
 
Attached Images   
  #23  
Old 05-10-14, 03:24 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
But is there a receptacle to the right of the cook top?
there is power going to the dishwasher and disposal.
But a restricted circuit.
I'm not sure what you mean by unfinished access.
Do you have a room with a ceiling below the floor. Does the door next to the left side of the cook top open?
 
  #24  
Old 05-10-14, 03:31 PM
ray2047's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 33,597
Likes Received: 13
Toylyn wrote:
While PC boss is 100% correct, and the circuit should not be shared, the minor load of a gas cook top would be fine IMO.
The rule IIRC says no other load if the microwave exceeds 50% so it would probably be code compliant if it is a 20 amp circuit.
There is another article which states that for any fixed-in-place appliance, the circuit must be dedicated if the appliance load is greater than 50% of the circuit; and the appliance load cannot exceed 80% of the circuit. For example a 1500W microwave must be on a dedicated 20A circuit, because it is greater than 50% of the 20A circuit ampacity and greater than 80% of a 15A circuit ampacity.

Read more: http://www.doityourself.com/forum/el...#ixzz31M440xz6
 
  #25  
Old 05-10-14, 03:51 PM
Tolyn Ironhand's Avatar
Group Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 12,766
Likes Received: 22
Is the disposal on its own circuit? It looks like it is hard wired, is there a box under the sink?

The code is that equipment that is fastened in place that utilizes more than 50% of a circuits ampacity is required to be fed with a dedicated circuit. So if the microwave is less than 7.5 amps you can share a 15 amp circuit or 10 amps for a 20 amp circuit. The same rules would apply to the dishwasher or disposal.

I know I am possibility suggesting a code violation by a adding the cook-top to one of the above circuits but we are talking about a very minor load of the spark igniter in the cook-top.
 
Reply

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Display Modes